BCHL adding 5 Alberta teams

Bubbles

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Apr 16, 2004
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Well, there's NCAA and there's NCAA. If you can't make North Dakota you can probably find a good D3 school.

What I am still wondering is what is Hockey Canada/the WHL/USports going to do to compete? Is USports in particular going to lift a finger here, or are they just going to keep doing the "our jobs are safe so we don't care" routine?

Hockey Canada has sat on their hands on all of this, which is why the BCHL left in the first place. HC handcuffs the BCHL or any other Junior A club to recruit outside their province. They don't see a problem seeing a guy like Fantilli and Power play for a USHL team than say, Penticton or Brooks.

I'm not saying they would have gone anyways, since the Chicago Steel are a powerhouse. But they would have had that option. So this opens the door for other Ontario or Atlantic/Quebec guys to stay in Canada and carve a path to the NCAA.

WHL will be fine as they will always get most of the talent. But the BCHL has been growing strong and has been a pipeline for NCAA players.

There's some people on here that have an old mentality of "guys needing more time" will go to Junior A. There are plenty of great kids that CHOOSE the NCAA path. Kent Johnson and Matthew Wood would have been just as good in the WHL as they were in the BCHL.

I also don't get this parents pushing college thing. College hockey/life is very appealing. It's simply two different paths, not saying one is better than the other.
 
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Yeah15

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Mar 15, 2007
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Unfortunately, all of the above makes zero sense.

The move to the BCHL isn't until next year, so as long as the 5 AJHL teams leaving are in good standing currently with the AJHL, CJHL, HC regarding fees etc. it has zero impact on the 24/25 season. None.
I thought the AJHL seemed very petty upon initial reaction to the news that they were cancelling games. But if their reasoning is to err on the side of caution so they can ensure they aren't ruining the eligibility of every player in the league, I feel like postponing these games for a later date is absolutely more than reasonable. If these teams had given the league a few days notice, perhaps they would have been able to carry-on without any changes to the schedule.

Only time will tell if this is the actual reason for the cancellation of games, and not out of sheer pettiness. Haven't heard anything on postponements of games scheduled for this weekend that the 5 teams involved in this scenario will be playing in.
 

Isaac Nootin

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Sep 28, 2017
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I thought the AJHL seemed very petty upon initial reaction to the news that they were cancelling games. But if their reasoning is to err on the side of caution so they can ensure they aren't ruining the eligibility of every player in the league
Again, this makes less than zero sense.

Are these teams (the 5 leaving) up to date on fees and in good standing within the AJ, CJHL and Hockey Canada for the 2023/24 season? If yes, then there is no reason for concern.

What does next year have to do with the current season exactly?
 

bigdog16

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Yeah, nobody thinks Toronto has a good university.

You claimed they were a top 10 university in NA and then just posted a link where they are, in fact, ranked outside of the top 10 lol
 

WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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I thought the AJHL seemed very petty upon initial reaction to the news that they were cancelling games. But if their reasoning is to err on the side of caution so they can ensure they aren't ruining the eligibility of every player in the league, I feel like postponing these games for a later date is absolutely more than reasonable. If these teams had given the league a few days notice, perhaps they would have been able to carry-on without any changes to the schedule.

Only time will tell if this is the actual reason for the cancellation of games, and not out of sheer pettiness. Haven't heard anything on postponements of games scheduled for this weekend that the 5 teams involved in this scenario will be playing in.
Why would Hockey Canada ban kids for playing teams that aren't in the BCHL yet? That makes zero sense. Sometimes the most obvious answer (petty) is the correct one.
 

oldunclehue

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Jun 16, 2010
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Again, this makes less than zero sense.

Are these teams (the 5 leaving) up to date on fees and in good standing within the AJ, CJHL and Hockey Canada for the 2023/24 season? If yes, then there is no reason for concern.

What does next year have to do with the current season exactly?
I don't get the punitive behavior by the AJHL and it simply looks petty. Junior A in Canada is supposed to be to develop players to move to the next level and to build good people whether they make it anywhere or not. The teams are private businesses (community or privately owned) and the league does not dictate day to day operations so I don't understand how they can suspend them based on their future choice?

Does anyone know which part of the AJHL constitution has been breached? Is the AJHL opening it self up to lawsuits based around this?

MANY MANY leagues around the world have teams move leagues, move up and down in tiers over the years. Why does the AJHL think it is better than any of those other leagues so much so to ruin the rest of the year for 120 kids? Fine the owners, suspend upper management people for the year....but to take hockey away from the kids and fans makes NO SENSE
 

PinkSlip

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Nov 24, 2015
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I'd like to thank everyone who has commented on my speculation about why the AJHL has been cancelling games between the BCHL bound five teams and remaining AJHL teams but has NOT (as of January 22: see AJHL STATEMENT – JANUARY 22, 2024) suspended the five nor cancelled their games against each other. Having lively discussion on a topic is what makes these forums fun.

I freely admit my original post was speculation on the AJHL's actions. It was based on the odd decision to only cancel games between the teams leaving and the teams staying while allowing other games to proceed and the knowledge that the previous BCHL exit from Hockey Canada created some bad feelings.

I agree that my guess as to what's happening makes no sense IF you know that there is nothing in the AJHL or Hockey Canada policies, bylaws, etc. that kick in if a team declares their intent to leave at a particular time in the season or year. I do not know the answer to this, I suspect the AJHL on the day of the BCHL announcement did not know, and I hope everyone is looking very carefully to ensure that whatever happens with the teams, the long term interests of the players is looked after first. I still believe the AJHL decided to initially react by separating teams into two groups for now by only cancelling crossover games. If anyone knows (not suspects or assumes) anything different, please share it because the inner workings of leagues and governing bodies can be very interesting.

I can understand how the AJHL cancelling games between the departing teams and remaining teams seems petty. It's difficult to know motivation but if the AJHL was going to be petty, why not go all the way and suspend the five teams or else cancel every one of their remaining games now? The AJHL teams rely heavily on gate revenue so every game cancelled hits a team's bottom line: when would pettiness give way to financial reality?

I understand that there are team movements between leagues although this is much more common in Europe with a promotion/ relegation scheme than in North America. The League does have a lot of say over whatever happens between teams since Junior A isn't house league despite how it seems to look right now. I share your interest in knowing exactly what is making the AJHL take the course of cancelling some games involving the five departing teams while allowing these same teams to play against each other. Since these teams have not been suspended (see AJHL website statement) and are playing some of their schedule, I agree the season is impacted but I can't say it's ruined for anyone based on what's been done so far.

So I conclude by asking again, can anyone give a good explanation of why the AJHL has only cancelled crossover games between the departing five and remaining eleven while allowing others to proceed.? Looking forward to your ideas and even more to any factual basis which can be shared here.
 
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PinkSlip

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Nov 24, 2015
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My apologies for butchering links to posts by Isaac Nootin, WarriorofTime, and oldunclehue. I'll try to sort it out later if I can.

Long time lurker but newbie poster.
 

MeHateHe

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Dec 24, 2006
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Posting for information only. It's a single-source story quoting from a seemingly neutral source. Lots of interesting points raised by the source, although the comment that the BCHL is "gaining traction" is a bit premature, given that they've been operating under the current model forless than a year. It may turn out that the current model will drive more elite players to the BCHL, but someone on this thread noted that there's no BCHL players in this draft class who are highly ranked. You can't draw any conclusions based on one season, and it's worth noting that the BCHL did very well for itself under the aegis of Hockey Canada.
 
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jetsmooseice

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So if it wasn't clear before, it's abundantly clear now that the BCHL is staking its claim to being the main route for Canadian junior age players who want to focus on a path to the NCAA.

Realistically the BCHL's geographic footprint won't expand all that much, they've entered Alberta but it seems unlikely that they will go beyond that anytime soon.

What I am wondering now is whether any eastern junior A leagues are poised to follow suit? You would think there would be a market for an "eastern BCHL" so players in Ontario and points east could pursue a similar path without uprooting themselves across the country at 16?
 

bigdog16

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So if it wasn't clear before, it's abundantly clear now that the BCHL is staking its claim to being the main route for Canadian junior age players who want to focus on a path to the NCAA.

Realistically the BCHL's geographic footprint won't expand all that much, they've entered Alberta but it seems unlikely that they will go beyond that anytime soon.

What I am wondering now is whether any eastern junior A leagues are poised to follow suit? You would think there would be a market for an "eastern BCHL" so players in Ontario and points east could pursue a similar path without uprooting themselves across the country at 16?
Would be interesting but I don't see it happening.
 

MeHateHe

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Dec 24, 2006
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What I am wondering now is whether any eastern junior A leagues are poised to follow suit? You would think there would be a market for an "eastern BCHL" so players in Ontario and points east could pursue a similar path without uprooting themselves across the country at 16?
Considering how few of the players in the current iteration of the BCHL are from western Canada, one wonders where the players would come from. You've already got the GMHL filling the niche as the outlaw Junior A league out there; surely if the business model made sense it would have happened from there.
 

MeHateHe

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Bunch of bs from the AJHL.

I really wonder if they'll survive this move.
The most generous interpretation of this is that the league is overly cautious with respect to how they think Hockey Canada will react to teams playing these potentially outlaw teams.

It's true that the five breakaway teams are not acting in the best interest of the league today, but unless there's a specific clause of the league's constitution those teams have violated, I don't know what justification the league can use for freezing those teams out.

So my bias is clear: I think teams should act in the best interest of the league they're in until they're no longer in the league. but having said that, the league has to follow its own rules regardless.
 

Yukon Joe

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Bunch of bs from the AJHL.

I really wonder if they'll survive this move.

So the AJHL is cancelling games between "defecting" teams and remaining teams, but will allow the defecting teams to play each other. They say that it's to protect the "competitive integrity" and "ensure the safety of our players and officials" but I really don't see how either of those are threatened because these five teams are defecting.

As a general rule I didn't like the BCHL going independent, and I didn't like these five teams quitting the AJHL in order to join the BCHL - but this move does seem rather petty by the AJHL.

That being said I'm sure the AJHL will survive. 11 teams is certainly enough to survive, plus they could likely recruit some existing Junior B teams to move up to Junior A (which is what happened in BC IIRC).

LIke so many things in minor hockey though - this is all being done in the name of the kids, but it's hard to see how kids are actually benefitting from the fracturing of the hockey development model.
 

cg98

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Oct 10, 2017
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So if it wasn't clear before, it's abundantly clear now that the BCHL is staking its claim to being the main route for Canadian junior age players who want to focus on a path to the NCAA.

Realistically the BCHL's geographic footprint won't expand all that much, they've entered Alberta but it seems unlikely that they will go beyond that anytime soon.

What I am wondering now is whether any eastern junior A leagues are poised to follow suit? You would think there would be a market for an "eastern BCHL" so players in Ontario and points east could pursue a similar path without uprooting themselves across the country at 16?
Not Junior A per se, but GOJHL I could see going as an independent Junior A circuit in Ontario and they probably already have the structure for such a move in place. Theyve been fighting the CJHL, Ontario Hockey Association, and Hockey Canada for Junior A designation up from Junior B for a very long time now and raised the issue again back in 2021, but I havent heard or seen anything since.

Pretty much the same argument as the BCHL for recruitment abilities except their recruitment base revolves around keeping the GTA-Southern Ontario kids in their player pool who would otherwise have to leave for the USHL or OJHL for Junior A. Now the kids from around the GOJHLs vicinity of recruitment have another (better) Junior A option in the BCHL and can go there freely without any restrictions, I dont think the GOJHL is going to stand idly by for too long anymore watching players leave across the country when they provide the same quality of Junior A, given the output tons of OHL and NCAA depth players from there.
 
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jetsmooseice

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Not Junior A per se, but GOJHL I could see going as an independent Junior A circuit in Ontario and they probably already have the structure for such a move in place. Theyve been fighting the CJHL, Ontario Hockey Association, and Hockey Canada for Junior A designation up from Junior B for a very long time now and raised the issue again back in 2021, but I havent heard or seen anything since.

Pretty much the same argument as the BCHL for recruitment abilities except their recruitment base revolves around keeping the GTA-Ontario kids in their player pool who would otherwise have to leave for the USHL or OJHL for Junior A. Now the kids from around the GOJHLs vicinity of recruitment have another (better) Junior A option in the BCHL and can go there freely without any restrictions, I dont think the GOJHL is going to stand idly by for too long anymore watching players leave across the country when they provide the same quality of Junior A, given the output tons of OHL and NCAA depth players from there.

Considering the volume of players coming out of southern Ontario, it does look like there is ample opportunity for a league to step up and fill the role of "super junior A" or whatever we're calling it for players who aren't interested in fighting for OHL scraps and would rather set their sights on the NCAA without having to move to Chilliwack or wherever first.

I realize that Hockey Canada has a lot on its plate these days, but I hope someone there is coming up with a plan to improve the range of domestic offerings to lure these players back from their US-bound trajectory. The CHL, CJHL and U Sports should be part of that discussion too.
 
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MeHateHe

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Not Junior A per se, but GOJHL I could see going as an independent Junior A circuit in Ontario and they probably already have the structure for such a move in place. Theyve been fighting the CJHL, Ontario Hockey Association, and Hockey Canada for Junior A designation up from Junior B for a very long time now and raised the issue again back in 2021, but I havent heard or seen anything since.

Pretty much the same argument as the BCHL for recruitment abilities except their recruitment base revolves around keeping the GTA-Ontario kids in their player pool who would otherwise have to leave for the USHL or OJHL for Junior A. Now the kids from around the GOJHLs vicinity of recruitment have another (better) Junior A option in the BCHL and can go there freely without any restrictions, I dont think the GOJHL is going to stand idly by for too long anymore watching players leave across the country when they provide the same quality of Junior A, given the output tons of OHL and NCAA depth players from there.
Bah. Wrong thread
 

WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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So if it wasn't clear before, it's abundantly clear now that the BCHL is staking its claim to being the main route for Canadian junior age players who want to focus on a path to the NCAA.

Realistically the BCHL's geographic footprint won't expand all that much, they've entered Alberta but it seems unlikely that they will go beyond that anytime soon.

What I am wondering now is whether any eastern junior A leagues are poised to follow suit? You would think there would be a market for an "eastern BCHL" so players in Ontario and points east could pursue a similar path without uprooting themselves across the country at 16?
1) Quebec is barely producing players that get drafted out of the QMJHL, let alone an excess for a good NCAA pipeline to emerge on top of it.

NCAA Players by Birth Province (2023-24) (birth province is not necessarily where they grew up/developed, but decent enough proxy for that without a deeper dive). Source is QuantHockey.

Ontario: 172
Alberta: 106
British Columbia: 98
Quebec: 50
Saskatchewan: 23
Manitoba: 23
Nova Scotia: 10
New Brunswick: 6
Newfoundland and Labrador: 5
Yukon: 1
Prince Edward Island: 1
Northwest Territory: 1

Grouped by CHL region
WHL: 252
OHL: 172
QMJHL: 72

So in many ways, the BCHL and best teams of the AJHL are well equipped to serve as an NCAA feeder because there's the most demand and mutual interest amongst Western Canadian players and NCAA D1 teams already. A big reason for this is travel. The OHL travel schedule is not that bad, the WHL travel schedule is tough, more kids would rather cut that out and control their own fate, which they can via BCHL -> NCAA.

2) I think we can, and likely will, see a consolidation of Junior A Hockey in Ontario. Currently you have the SIJHL in Northwest Ontario with 7 teams, the NOJHL in Northeastern Ontario with 12 teams and the OJHL in Southern Ontario with 22 teams. So that's 41 Junior A teams to service Ontario players across the 3 Leagues.

A couple of additional factors in play - the USHL teams are not far from Ontario's border. The USHL is the primary feeder into the NCAA and many Ontario kids that want to play NCAA Hockey will head down south. And now with the BCHL going outlaw, they will be age restricted on recruiting Ontario kids into their league that also are seeking the NCAA path, and so we'd likely expect a few more high-end kids to get poached out of Ontario Junior A.

I don't know how much that is going to make sense going forward, in terms of being enough demand to service and how economically viable it can remain on a go-forward basis. If those 3 Leagues merge together and consolidate down to something smaller, that would raise the level of play and could have a resulting increase to act as a counter to the BCHL's status as Canada's premier NCAA feeder league. The headstart of the BCHL and USHL though means there would be quite a bit of catching up to do.

Here is the data, which is a few years old (article from June 15, 2020, here Paths to NCAA Show Need for Patience - College Hockey, Inc.) on NCAA players in the league they were playing in before College,

USHL - 575
BCHL - 272
NAHL (Tier II USA for those unfamiliar) - 262
AJHL - 99
OJHL - 82
USPHL (breakaway USA, after getting rejected for Tier II status) - 69
CCHL - 56
USNDTP (single team per age year, premier American players) - 50
US Prep Schools (about half in Massachusetts) - 32
SJHL - 19
High School (almost entirely, but not totally exclusively Minnesota) - 14
MJHL - 11
GOJHL - 4

a few others miscellaneously scattered here and there
 
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oldunclehue

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Jun 16, 2010
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Rumours are flying around some MJHL organizations that there are talks of a "Prairie Junior Hockey League" combining teams from MJHL, SJHL and AJHL. Having different divisions to limit travel and move towards a more competitive league, leaving out some of the bottom feeder teams that struggle (Wpg Freeze, Wpg Blues, Selkirk) and I'd potentially add in OCN, Neepawa and Swan Valley.

Leagues will need to think outside the box so they don't lose the top end talent for nothing to the BCHL as it grows.

Hockey Canada is hurting at many fronts right now. They need to re-evaluate how they do business or they will continue to lose support of league, fans and hockey players. Sad state of affairs for them right now.

But hey....the not allowed to change in dressing rooms rule was their BIG NEWS of the year...otherwise its been a pathetic year. And I think leagues under the CHL should consider becoming independent as development from Hockey Canada has diminished especially the further west from Toronto you go.
 

Bubbles

Die Hard for Bedard 2023
Apr 16, 2004
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So if it wasn't clear before, it's abundantly clear now that the BCHL is staking its claim to being the main route for Canadian junior age players who want to focus on a path to the NCAA.

Realistically the BCHL's geographic footprint won't expand all that much, they've entered Alberta but it seems unlikely that they will go beyond that anytime soon.

What I am wondering now is whether any eastern junior A leagues are poised to follow suit? You would think there would be a market for an "eastern BCHL" so players in Ontario and points east could pursue a similar path without uprooting themselves across the country at 16?

It's unlikely the BCHL will expand beyond Alberta. The travel alone makes it not worth it. Moving Cranbrook and Trail to an Alberta division would probably help them out.

Sure, there's a market but no one wants to do it. You just can't create a league or make people go to another hockey league where the OHL is so much more dominant. I don't know much about Trenton but they seem to be the dominant OJHL team and they can't even compare to some of the teams in the BCHL, in terms of coaching/facilities, as well as scouts. There are way more NCAA scouts in the BCHL/AJHL than the OJHL.

This is why you're seeing some of the elite talent from Ontario just leaving Canada in general and ending up in Chicago. HC and OJHL have done nothing and will do nothing but instead, try to hinder other Canadian Junior A clubs from recruiting them.
 
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Isaac Nootin

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Sep 28, 2017
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There has to be legal ramifications for the AJHL cancelling games for teams that are in good standing withing Hockey Canada.

I don't think this is a good look/move on the AJHL's part.
 
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