Around Hockey XXIV (All Non-Jackets Hockey talk in here)

[DarkandStormy]

Typing this up before looking at any models/odds.

In the East, it seems like we are locked into at least four Atlantic teams - Boston and Florida #1&2, Tampa and Toronto will battle it out for #3 and a Wild Card spot.

Carolina is surging to try to overtake the Rangers but those two should finish 1&2 in the Metro.

From there, it's kind of open:
-Philly coming back to the pack, uncertainty with the Carter Hart situation.
-Detroit slightly outperforming expectations, sort of holding onto WC2 by default.
-Sorokin has merely been league average and that's not good enough if the Islanders are going to make the playoffs.
-Everyone keeps waiting on Pittsburgh to take that step - Crosby is doing his best to drag them there - but maybe they're just not that good?
-The Devils are mathematically there but need Jack Hughes back asap.
-Washington is also technically not too far out of it, but they're done.

In the West...
-the Central Division race has been fascinating. There is a major incentive to win that division to avoid the 2/3 matchup in the first round.
-Vancouver has been running away with the Pacific (surprise team of the year?)
-Vegas has really cooled off after a hot start but should comfortably in.
-At the other end of the spectrum, Edmonton can't lose.
-That leaves L.A. in a Wild Card spot. They are in a tailspin, but could get a "new coach bump" after the break.
-St. Louis is in the last wild card spot, with Nashville and Seattle not too far behind.

 

[Cowumbus]

Crazy group of facts - Usain Bolt's top speed, about two thirds through the 100m, has been measured at 27 mph. 27 miles is the world record distance in an hour of speed skating, by a Dutch guy named Erik Jan Kooiman. Kooiman went Bolt's speed for an hour.

McDavid has been measured at 25.5 mph, not nearly as fast as a 500m speed skater, who would go over 30 mph. But the primary constraint there might be that a hockey rink is too small, a player has to stop before he gets close to top speed.

The skates don’t help either, the blade lengths and cuts are different which should help McDavid get even faster.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Atlanta is a two time NHL loser. I've heard every excuse in the book as to why, but the fact remains that the league has failed twice there. The third time wouldn't necessarily be a charm.

In 1978, the WHA came within one vote of being merged with the NHL. The Cincinnati Stingers would have joined the NHL. The next year, the NHL voted to take the WHA but the Stingers opted out and took a payment to fold. Point is that Cincinnati was considered an NHL city 40 years ago. The Stingers probably would have met the same fate as the Harford Whalers-relocation after a decade or so-had they ended up in the NHL.

A new arena with some well-heeled ownership and it could work out. I agree that it's a long shot, but the ECHL Cincinnati Cyclones are regularly drawing 8,000 or more on weekend dates with virtually no media coverage. The Cyclones only report how many people are actually in the building compared to the nebulous "tickets distributed" method of attendance reporting that most teams (including the CBJ) use. The television market is about the same size as Columbus and Salt Lake City. Cincinnati comes into play when the NHL goes to 36 teams and/or Arizona, Winnipeg and Florida start looking for new locations.

Jacksonville FL could be a darkhorse candidate for NHL expansion at some point. It's a growing market and if reported attendance figures are to be believed, the ECHL Icemen draw quite well.

Oversimplifying your post I get “Atlanta is a failed NHL city” and “Cincy was once considered an NHL city” as though the same wasn’t true of Atlanta. Every “failed” NHL city was “once considered” and NHL city.

Cincy is a great sports town. I’m not predicting anything with the regard to future NHL expansion. Just saying.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Oversimplifying your post I get “Atlanta is a failed NHL city” and “Cincy was once considered an NHL city” as though the same wasn’t true of Atlanta. Every “failed” NHL city was “once considered” and NHL city.

Cincy is a great sports town. I’m not predicting anything with the regard to future NHL expansion. Just saying.

Yes. You oversimplified it. LOL

 

[Cyclones Rock]

True, they do draw pretty well for an ECHL team, just as the Chill did playing in the fairgrounds even if it did smell like farm animals. Columbus didn't really have the competition for sports dollars at the time. The Crew was new and everything still revolves around OSU football.

I'm not sure where they could put an arena. the site of the existing one would be ideal but then you'd have to tear it down and have no big arena for a couple of years. It cold thrive there but I just don't see Cincinnati as a market that can handle virtually every major league sport. I think the NBA would do better based on proximity to Kentucky.

There's some land near the Convention Center and a few other locations outside of the current arena's Riverfront site. Finding a good site for the arena wouldn't be an issue.

I won't go into much detail, but there have been a few developments over the past year which suggest to me that there are legitimate and well-heeled individuals who would be interested in the NHL for Cincinnati. The Chiller Rink concept is something that appears to be underway in Cincinnati and those who are financing it are extremely well connected in the entertainment and sports industries.

I definitely agree that Cincinnati isn't a major 4 sports town. Whether it is a "3" is the big question. While basketball is certainly much more popular than hockey, it would face a ton of competition for the basketball dollar. Univ. or Cincinnati and Xavier have very successful D1 programs and interest in UK basketball is huge. The Ohio State University program also has a significant local following. U of Louisville has hit the skids and interest in it is waning, but that could change quickly given the new rules in college basketball. High school basketball is very popular as well. Hockey wouldn't face that kind of similar competition.

That being said, I was at the Cyclones game last night and no one around me was aware of a potential NHL bid and I sit in a (mainly) season ticket holders area behind the home bench. Most were concerned about how the refs were causing our defensemen to constantly let guys get behing them in an embarrassing 7-1 loss. LOL. Hockey remains a "cheap and fun night out" entertainment vehicle and the vast majority of attendees aren't very hockey saavy.

Cincinnati certainly isn't a top "next up" choice for the NHL, but it may have some intrigue to the league should they expand to 34 or 36 teams and there is relocation for a current team or two.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

There's some land near the Convention Center and a few other locations outside of the current arena's Riverfront site. Finding a good site for the arena wouldn't be an issue.

I won't go into much detail, but there have been a few developments over the past year which suggest to me that there are legitimate and well-heeled individuals who would be interested in the NHL for Cincinnati. The Chiller Rink concept is something that appears to be underway in Cincinnati and those who are financing it are extremely well connected in the entertainment and sports industries.

I definitely agree that Cincinnati isn't a major 4 sports town. Whether it is a "3" is the big question. While basketball is certainly much more popular than hockey, it would face a ton of competition for the basketball dollar. Univ. or Cincinnati and Xavier have very successful D1 programs and interest in UK basketball is huge. The Ohio State University program also has a significant local following. U of Louisville has hit the skids and interest in it is waning, but that could change quickly given the new rules in college basketball. High school basketball is very popular as well. Hockey wouldn't face that kind of similar competition.

That being said, I was at the Cyclones game last night and no one around me was aware of a potential NHL bid and I sit in a (mainly) season ticket holders area behind the home bench. Most were concerned about how the refs were causing our defensemen to constantly let guys get behing them in an embarrassing 7-1 loss. LOL. Hockey remains a "cheap and fun night out" entertainment vehicle and the vast majority of attendees aren't very hockey saavy.

Cincinnati certainly isn't a top "next up" choice for the NHL, but it may have some intrigue to the league should they expand to 34 or 36 teams and there is relocation for a current team or two.

That's good if there are more rinks underway. I have a friend whose kid plays for the Cyclones youth team and he told me they have to go to Detroit for games all the time because ice time is virtually impossible in the area.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

That's good if there are more rinks underway. I have a friend whose kid plays for the Cyclones youth team and he told me they have to go to Detroit for games all the time because ice time is virtually impossible in the area.

There are fewer ice surfaces now than in 1975 in the Greater Cincinnati Area. There were 7. Now there are 6. And the 6 are less available than the 7 were for a variety of reasons. Practice times for high schools are often around midnight and the result has been a dramatic decrease in high school teams.

 

[koteka]

Made me laugh.

 

[koteka]

There are fewer ice surfaces now than in 1975 in the Greater Cincinnati Area. There were 7. Now there are 6. And the 6 are less available than the 7 were for a variety of reasons. Practice times for high schools are often around midnight and the result has been a dramatic decrease in high school teams.

The best rinks in southwestern Ohio are the rinks in Oxford and Springfield. Kettering is pretty good. Cincinnati could use a nice rink or two.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The best rinks in southwestern Ohio are the rinks in Oxford and Springfield. Kettering is pretty good. Cincinnati could use a nice rink or two.

Sports Plus which is now Queen City Sports is going to add an extra rink and upgrade their existing two.

Heard a rumor regarding other rinks going in a various shopping malls. We'll see.

Goggin (Miami U in Oxford) is a sweet facility. I played at its predecessor many moons ago. Wasn't a bad rink, but not in Goggin's class.

 

[koteka]

Sports Plus which is now Queen City Sports is going to add an extra rink and upgrade their existing two.

Heard a rumor regarding other rinks going in a various shopping malls. We'll see.

Goggin (Miami U in Oxford) is a sweet facility. I played at its predecessor many moons ago. Wasn't a bad rink, but not in Goggin's class.

I would think a rink in Mason would do well. And Mason and the Lakota schools seem like they should have decent high school hockey programs.

The highest ranked Cincinnati high school is St X at 15th. Moeller is 17th.

Team Rankings - MYHockey

The Swords are the 4th rated Club team, but they should be given the population of Cincinnati and how few schools have hockey now.

Team Rankings - MYHockey

 

[Doggy]

But that doesn't bring in new money.

They're going to go to 36 eventually. I'd venture to guess at least three of the new markets will be in the U.S., if not all four.

May be 8-10 years before we get there, though, imo.

It also gives you a chance to go back to three divisions in each conference, six teams a division. Or two nine-team divisions.

While you certainly cannot compare the new money for a relocation vs an expansion, there are some benefits to it.

1) In 2011, the Jets ownership purchased the Thrashers for $170M. $110M went to the Thrashers ownership and $60M went to the NHL in the form of a relocation fee. Forbes has the Coyotes as being worth $500M while rumors have the next expansion team costing $1B.

Even if the Coyote ownership squeezes the SLC group to pay $600M - $700M, the NHL could still possibly demand a $200M relocation fee. It's not $1B but its still an infusion to every team owner without having to lose a player to an expansion draft.

2) Addition by subtraction: the league's revenues should see a net gain just by moving the franchise out of a 5K seat building.

3) The league needs to address the arena situation in the almost immediate future. The NHLPA is very unhappy with the arena situation in Arizona and expect Marty Walsh to raise the issue with Bettman if a solid plan is not in place by the end of this season.

 

[Jovavic]

I think I read their lease there is good through 24-25? Things are coming to head there, shortly.

 

[Doggy]

As for Cincy and the NHL, I think Bettman is just stirring the pot and getting all the internet trolls worked up into a frenzy. If anything I could see this being Bettman smartly telling CBJ brass they are not working hard enough in the state to create a fanbase outside the capitol region.

My guess is in order of desirable expansion markets Cincy wouldn't rank much higher than sixth or seventh. Not dissing the city but being realistic.

 

[majormajor]

As for Cincy and the NHL, I think Bettman is just stirring the pot and getting all the internet trolls worked up into a frenzy. If anything I could see this being Bettman smartly telling CBJ brass they are not working hard enough in the state to create a fanbase outside the capitol region.

My guess is in order of desirable expansion markets Cincy wouldn't rank much higher than sixth or seventh. Not dissing the city but being realistic.

He's not going to publicly dismiss expansion candidates, he's trying to leverage up a bigger expansion fee from SLC.

 

[squashmaple]

As for Cincy and the NHL, I think Bettman is just stirring the pot and getting all the internet trolls worked up into a frenzy. If anything I could see this being Bettman smartly telling CBJ brass they are not working hard enough in the state to create a fanbase outside the capitol region.

My guess is in order of desirable expansion markets Cincy wouldn't rank much higher than sixth or seventh. Not dissing the city but being realistic.

Considering our state law after the Crew debacle, the Blue Jackets being sold and relocating to Cincinnati is more likely than a new expansion team there.

 

[Doggy]

The Athletic article regarding NHL players and gambling was interesting. Part of TA's wide ranging anonymous survey of players, 89% say they are now clear on dos and don'ts of gambling and 11% are still unsure of the details. It seems a lot of the players were kinda confused prior to the Pinto suspension and the NHLPA visiting every dressing room to discuss what they can and cannot do.

Intersting comment about how English is not everyone's first language and there might be some "lost in translation" for some player. Anyway, I found it worth the read.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Replying to last year's full-season stats. Here is your post-US Thanksgiving, roughly 1/4 season check on former Blue Jackets playing in the NHL:

Liam Foudy - 0-2-2 in 11 games since being claimed by Nashville
Joonas Korpisalo - 5-4, .906 save%, 3.17 GAA now with the Senators
Vladislav Gavrikov - 2-4-6, +6 in 19 games with L.A.
Gustav Nyquist - 3-12-15, +5 in 20 games for the Predators
Jonathan Quick - 6-0-1, .930 sv%, 1.99 GAA, 2 shutouts with the Rangers
Jakub Voracek - retired
Oliver Bjorkstrand - 7-12-19, +4 in 20 games for Seattle
Max Domi - 0-11-11, +1, 37 PIM now with Toronto
Scott Harrington - out of the NHL, now in Switzerland
Kevin Stenlund - 5-2-7, +1, 16 PIM for the Panthers
Zac Dalpe - no NHL games this season, AHL only
Cam Atkinson - after missing all of last season, Cam he posted 8-6-14, -7 in 21 games with the Flyers
Seth Jones - 0-7-7, -8 in 19 games for Chicago; is now -83 in 169 games since leaving Columbus
Nick Foligno - 2-7-9, +1, 11 PIM also with Chicago
David Savard - 0-2-2 in 5 games with Montreal
Pierre-Luc Dubois - 5-6-11, 18 PIM in 19 games with the Kings
Josh Anderson - 0-2-2 (YIKES), -5 , 24 PIM in 21 games for the Canadiens
Ryan Murray - career appears to be over?
Devin Shore - 1-1-2, -1 in 9 games for the Kraken
Alex Wennberg - 2-6-8 in 22 games, also with the Kraken
Sergei Bobrovsky - 9-6-1, .906 and a 2.65 GAA with one shutout for the Panthers
Derick Brassard - career appears to be over?
Ian Cole - 0-3-3, +4, 28 PIM in 22 games now with Vancouver
Matt Duchene - bought out by Nashville, 6-10-16, +5 in 18 games now with Dallas
Anthony Duclair - 3-2-5, -12 in 18 games for San Jose
Ryan Johansen - 7-1-8, -1 in 20 games now with Colorado
Jack Johnson - somehow still in the league....1-3-4, +1
William Lars Karlsson - 9-11-20, +9 in 21 games with Vegas
Jonathan Marchessault - The reigning Conn Smythe winner has posted 9-5-14 in 21 games for Vegas
Frank Sonny Milano - 3-4-7 in 16 games with Washington
Artemi Panarin - 11-18-29 in 19 games with the Rangers
Brandon Saad - 3-6-9, +5 in 20 games with St. Louis
Anton Stralman - NHL career appears to be over, back in Sweden
Tyler Motte - 0-1-1 in 11 games for Tampa Bay
Anton Forsberg - 3-4, .850 save %, 3.51 GAA in Ottawa
Sam Gagner - 2-1-3 in 8 games in his 3rd stint in Edmonton
Nick Holden - career is over
Gabriel Carlsson - appeared in 6 games with Washington last season, now in Sweden

Here is your belated All-Star Break check-in on former Jackets and how they're doing in the NHL this season (Keegan Kolesar not included):

Liam Foudy - 0-3-3 in 12 games since being claimed by Nashville, but has been sent to AHL Milwaukee
Joonas Korpisalo - 12-16-2, 33 appearances total; .899 sv % & a 3.38 GAA in Ottawa...been a rough year for the Sens but Korpi has *four more years* at $4m/year after this season
Vladislav Gavrikov - 3-10-13, +2 and 12 PIM in 43 games for L.A.
Gustav Nyquist - 12-26-38 in 51 games with Nashville
Oliver Bjorkstrand - 13-27-40 in 50 games for the Kraken
Max Domi - 4-20-24, -1, 60 PIM with Toronto
Kevin Stenlund - 8-3-11, -6 in 49 games for Florida
Cam Atkinson - 13-15-28, -16 in 49 games with the Flyers
Seth Jones - 1-14-15, -11 in 35 games for Chicago; is now -86 in 185 games since leaving Columbus
Nick Foligno - 9-9-18, -7, 43 PIM in 43 games also with Chicago
David Savard - 4-7-11, -10 in 27 games with Montreal
Pierre-Luc Dubois - 10-10-20, -16 & 36 PIM in 48 games with the Kings; recently getting called out by teammates in the media
Josh Anderson - 7-6-13, -13 , 51 PIM in 45 games for the Canadiens
Devin Shore - 1-3-4, +3 in 21 games for the Kraken; waived and not claimed last month
Alex Wennberg - 8-12-20, +1 in 50 games, also with the Kraken
Sergei Bobrovsky - 23-10-2, .910 and a 2.51 GAA with two shutouts for the Panthers
Ian Cole - 1-6-7, +10, 4- PIM in 48 games now with Vancouver
Matt Duchene - bought out by Nashville, 17-28-45, +13 in 48 games now with Dallas
Anthony Duclair - 9-8-17, -12 in 46 games for San Jose
Ryan Johansen - 11-7-18, -6 in 50 games now with Colorado
Jack Johnson - somehow still in the league....2-7-9, +6, 34 PIM in 49 games also with Colorado
William Lars Karlsson - 15-17-32, +10 in 38 games with Vegas
Jonathan Marchessault - The reigning Conn Smythe winner has posted 25-15-40 in 50 games for Vegas
Frank Sonny Milano - 4-4-8, -1 in 23 games with Washington
Artemi Panarin - 31-36-67 in 50 games with the Rangers
Brandon Saad - 13-8-21, -9 in 49 games with St. Louis
Tyler Motte - 4-2-6, -1 in 40 games for Tampa Bay
Anton Forsberg - 7-8, .889 save %, 3.35 GAA and one shutout in Ottawa
Sam Gagner - 5-5-10, +2 in 22 games in his 3rd stint in Edmonton
Riley Nash - no stats in one game for the Rangers

 

[koteka]

David Savard - 4-7-11, -10 in 27 games with Montreal

Josh Anderson - 7-6-13, -13 , 51 PIM in 45 games for the Canadiens

This is crazy. Scoring machine David Savard (0.41) with a higher points per game than his teammate Josh Anderson (0.29).

 

[stevo61]

This is crazy. Scoring machine David Savard (0.41) with a higher points per game than his teammate Josh Anderson (0.29).

Or better yet its basically identical to Dubois' PPG

 

[koteka]

If you want to see some good hockey this weekend, the semifinals on Saturday at Chiller North might be pretty good. And I bet the finals will be really good on Sunday at the Ice Haus (the CBJ practice rink).

 

[squashmaple]

One of my favorite days to work when I was still at NWA was OSHAA hockey playoffs. It was always so much fun to see how excited the kids and families were to get to play on the NWA ice.

 

[koteka]

One of my favorite days to work when I was still at NWA was OSHAA hockey playoffs. It was always so much fun to see how excited the kids and families were to get to play on the NWA ice.

March 8 and 10 this year.

 

[Cowumbus]

 

[Crede777]

Reading the tea leaves, it sounds like the league is demanding that Arizona's ownership provide a concrete plan to have the team play in an arena that meets minimum league qualifications or else the league will force a sale either to itself or to another ownership group that would be able to provide an arena.

The issue will be forcing Merulo to sell when he doesn't want to. That's where the litigation that Friedman is alluding to would come from.

One surprising thing for me is that Friedman and others are insisting that Salt Lake City is not a relocation destination and Ryan Smyth is really only interested in expansion...