Most overrated player in the NHL?

[cowboy82nd]

Always the manipulator's technique of distorting words. I just said that Ray Bourque is the best scorer among defenders because he made the most attempts by far, not because he had the best shot. This his the same thing for Ovechkin. And that's the reality.

By shooting as much as he did in his career, a player like Selanne or Jagr would have scored more goals.

Then, how come they didn’t?

 

[Planetov]

The one year Washington went far, there were 3 guys better than Ovechkin on the team.

No there weren’t.

John Carlson in particular was much better than him in 2018.

No he wasn’t.

He was given his trophy based on his reputation built between 2005 and 2010.

No he wasn’t.

 

[cowboy82nd]

Disagree. A player who plays above all to help his team win is more profitable than a player who thinks above all about scoring to win the Richard Trophy.

Crosby, Malkin and Kane may have scored fewer goals but they won more Stanley Cups.

I am convinced that Crosby and Malkin could have scored more goals than Ovechkin but they preferred to do something else on the ice.

Elite players essentially play to win. Connor McDavid is also one of those who could shatter Gretzky's record if he had made it a goal.

Sure you are. Crosby and Malkin could be the all time leaders in goals scored, but they are not. So, are you mad that Ovechkin has scored goals than both of them, or is it because Crosby and Malkin did “ something else on the ice”, instead of scoring goals?

 

[filinski77]

Nothing to do with what I'm saying. The percentage of shooting success is more revealing than the number of goals.

Players other than Ovechkin would have broken Gretzky's record if they had made it a career goal. Gretzky himself would have scored over 1000 goals if he had made it a goal.

The number of goals does not indicate scoring talent. Selanne was a better scorer than Ovechkin. He was just less selfish.

Breaking Gretzky's record with a success percentage below 13% is not impressive. If Matthews beats him with more than 16% success, it will have much greater value.

"The percentage of shooting success is more revealing than the number of goals."
You have an inherent flaw in the fact that you are looking at all shooting %'s as equal. Which completely ignores:

1) Shooting % differs across era's (ie. Goalie save % has been on average higher in Matthews career than it has been in Ovi's career - let alone when comparing Ovi to Gretzky or something).

2) Shot generation is a skill, and it is completely childish to act like players can just choose to "shoot more". If you've ever watched Ovechkin during his career, you'll know that he passes A LOT on rushes etc. If he truly wanted to just shoot shoot shoot, he would have more shots, and slightly more goals (just at a lower rate due to lower chance opportunities).

3) Shooting distances. Ovechkin shoots from further away than pretty much any elite goal scorer does. I shouldn't have to explain that shooting from further away will inherently result in lower shooting %.

"Players other than Ovechkin would have broken Gretzky's record if they had made it a career goal."
This is ridiculous to assume Ovechkin has made it his own goal to do so. The Capitals have been one of the most successful teams over the last 20 years, and Ovechkin has lead that team in goals every single year of his career (other than this year so far). To assume that Ovechkin's career objective has been to break Gretzky's record is completely ignorant. Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer of all time, and shockingly, him scoring goals helps his team win.

"The number of goals does not indicate scoring talent. Selanne was a better scorer than Ovechkin. He was just less selfish."
Ovechkin lead the league in goals more than anyone else in NHL history. That's what makes him the best. How the hell do you define who the best point scorer is then? Is McDavid not the best point scorer of this generation even though he's won 5 art rosses?

Your comment on selfishness is completely subjective and most likely based on an internal bias you clearly have.

On the topic of goalscoring and how it fits with your initial assertion about Ovi being overrated:
Remove the NHL goal record, remove the NHL record for most retro-rockets, remove the NHL record for the most times leading in goals/gp. Here's what remains on Ovechkins resume:

-> 3x Hart Trophies (4th most in NHL history)
-> 4x the highest voted SKATER in the Hart voting (lost one to Price), this could likely be the 3rd most of all time
-> 3x Pearson trophies (4th most in NHL history)
-> 3x leading the NHL in points per game (9th most in NHL history)
-> 14th all-time in points in one of the lowest scoring eras of all-time (good chance at finishing top-10 all-time
-> 7th all-time in era-adjusted points (will finish his career 5th all-time).
-> NHL record for the most times leading their own team in goals in the playoff
-> 3rd place all-time for the most times leading their own team in points in the playoffs (only Howe and Gretzky have done it more)
-> 6th most top-20 point finishes in NHL history
-> 9th most top-15 point finishes in NHL history

As a summary:
1) Ovechkin has one of the best peaks of all-time
2) Ovechkin is a top ~10 point producer of all-time
3) Ovechkin has by far the greatest goal-scoring resume of all-time (raw, adjusted, top-1 finishes, top-10 finishes, clutch goales etc).

Ovechkin is NOT overrated lol.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

The Capitals .657 P% were the best in the east during that time frame.

Which frame ? Only 1 time in the Eastern final in 20 years

 

[filinski77]

Which frame ? Only 1 time in the Eastern final in 20 years

Is McDavid not the best player in the league since he's came in? He's been in 0 cup finals so he must suck right? Who cares that the rest of his team stinks... right?

/s

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Sure you are. Crosby and Malkin could be the all time leaders in goals scored, but they are not. So, are you mad that Ovechkin has scored goals than both of them, or is it because Crosby and Malkin did “ something else on the ice”, instead of scoring goals?

There are a lot of things Crosby and Malkin were doing on the ice other than scoring goals.
Crosby is indefinitely superior to Ovechkin, there's not even a debate. Malkin is at the same level.

Is McDavid not the best player in the league since he's came in? He's been in 0 cup finals so he must suck right? Who cares that the rest of his team stinks... right?

/s

McDavid's career is not over. Still 12-15 years to play. And no, Edmonton does not dominate in the West. And ?

 

[MadLuke]

Which frame ? Only 1 time in the Eastern final in 20 years

The one shown in the link of the message you quoted is 2008-2010

 

[cowboy82nd]

There are a lot of things Crosby and Malkin were doing on the ice other than scoring goals.
Crosby is indefinitely superior to Ovechkin, there's not even a debate. Malkin is at the same level.



McDavid's career is not over. Still 12-15 years to play. And no, Edmonton does not dominate in the West. And ?

You didn’t answer me. Are you mad that Ovechkin has scored more goals then both of them? Or are you mad that Crosby and Malkin were doing other things on the ice instead of scoring goals? Which one is it, because your hate is strong.

 

[KingPuckChoo]

has to be Kurtis MacDermid, he actually convinced people that he's a hockey player

dude wasn't even drafted, who did he convince? and for how much??

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

"The percentage of shooting success is more revealing than the number of goals."
You have an inherent flaw in the fact that you are looking at all shooting %'s as equal. Which completely ignores:

1) Shooting % differs across era's (ie. Goalie save % has been on average higher in Matthews career than it has been in Ovi's career - let alone when comparing Ovi to Gretzky or something).

2) Shot generation is a skill, and it is completely childish to act like players can just choose to "shoot more". If you've ever watched Ovechkin during his career, you'll know that he passes A LOT on rushes etc. If he truly wanted to just shoot shoot shoot, he would have more shots, and slightly more goals (just at a lower rate due to lower chance opportunities).

3) Shooting distances. Ovechkin shoots from further away than pretty much any elite goal scorer does. I shouldn't have to explain that shooting from further away will inherently result in lower shooting %.

"Players other than Ovechkin would have broken Gretzky's record if they had made it a career goal."
This is ridiculous to assume Ovechkin has made it his own goal to do so. The Capitals have been one of the most successful teams over the last 20 years, and Ovechkin has lead that team in goals every single year of his career (other than this year so far). To assume that Ovechkin's career objective has been to break Gretzky's record is completely ignorant. Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer of all time, and shockingly, him scoring goals helps his team win.

"The number of goals does not indicate scoring talent. Selanne was a better scorer than Ovechkin. He was just less selfish."
Ovechkin lead the league in goals more than anyone else in NHL history. That's what makes him the best. How the hell do you define who the best point scorer is then? Is McDavid not the best point scorer of this generation even though he's won 5 art rosses?

Your comment on selfishness is completely subjective and most likely based on an internal bias you clearly have.

On the topic of goalscoring and how it fits with your initial assertion about Ovi being overrated:
Remove the NHL goal record, remove the NHL record for most retro-rockets, remove the NHL record for the most times leading in goals/gp. Here's what remains on Ovechkins resume:

-> 3x Hart Trophies (4th most in NHL history)
-> 4x the highest voted SKATER in the Hart voting (lost one to Price), this could likely be the 3rd most of all time
-> 3x Pearson trophies (4th most in NHL history)
->2013 Hart Trophy stolen from Crosby. (9th most in NHL history)
-> 14th all-time in points in one of the lowest scoring eras of all-time (good chance at finishing top-10 all-time
-> 7th all-time in era-adjusted points (will finish his career 5th all-time).
-> NHL record for the most times leading their own team in goals in the playoff
-> 3rd place all-time for the most times leading their own team in points in the playoffs (only Howe and Gretzky have done it more)
-> 6th most top-20 point finishes in NHL history
-> 9th most top-15 point finishes in NHL history

As a summary:
1) Ovechkin has one of the best peaks of all-time
2) Ovechkin is a top ~10 point producer of all-time
3) Ovechkin has by far the greatest goal-scoring resume of all-time (raw, adjusted, top-1 finishes, top-10 finishes, clutch goales etc).

Ovechkin is NOT overrated lol.

1. Not in the top 50 of his generation so the generation excuse doesn't work.
2. I'm 38. I watched Ovechkin play. The most individualistic player in the history of this game.
3. Damn excuse. Matthews shoots from distance. Laine shoots from distance. And if Ovechkin doesn't have the skill to get close to the goal like Kucherov, we're not going to make him a quality.
4. Where are Washington's many titles ? Only 1 time in the NHL top 4 in 20 years. Below league average.
5. Elite talents who were more efficient in shooting would necessarily have done better if they had made it an obsession, it's mathematical. 12.8% is not crazy.
6. By one shot, he missed being the player who shot the most 11 times in a row. With an efficiency percentage still very far from the top 10 in the league.
7. 2013 Hart Trophy stolen from Crosby.
8 Only 15th goal scorer in playoff.
9 "3 times N°1 PPG" Fake stat. Only one, two if not Forsberg by 0.01 over Crosby and Malkin.

After the other crappy stats that would take hours to check, I leave. His prime was 2005-2010 and that only gave a very individualistic player without a path to the final phase.

And between 2010-2024 ?

All the fraud is there. 14 years later, some are having trouble updating.

Not a season with more than 90 points, negative presence on the ice, not even in the top 50 of the league in career shooting efficiency, fewer assists than goals each almost season.

This guy is not top 10 in history. Kucherov is better than him as a Russian.

He's overrated.

You didn’t answer me. Are you mad that Ovechkin has scored more goals then both of them? Or are you mad that Crosby and Malkin were doing other things on the ice instead of scoring goals? Which one is it, because your hate is strong.

No hate. Just an opinion. Crosby is better than Ovechkin. Malkin is no less strong.
Your intolerance for letting a hockey fan have this opinion is strong.

 

[Leafshater67]

Your thoughts are completely incoherent. I also perceive a lot of aggression.

By taking more shots, elite players who were more efficient at shooting would have scored more goals in their careers, that seems obvious to me.

But the goal in hockey is to help your team win, not to score goals for your score.

I guess I’m just annoyed you can bash great players and be so confidently and insufferably wrong, right out in the open for all of us to laugh at.

Ovi sucks. Got it. If shooting percentage was as big of a deal as you think, Michael Carcone would win the hart trophy this year.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I guess I’m just annoyed you can bash great players and be so confidently and insufferably wrong, right out in the open for all of us to laugh at.

Ovi sucks. Got it. If shooting percentage was as big of a deal as you think, Michael Carcone would win the hart trophy this year.

Always the same manipulation technique by distorting the words. I said Ovechkin wasn't top 10 in history. Many imagine this just because of his number of career goals which must be put into perspective. He has the same level as Malkin and Kane. So no, I'm far from saying he's bad. Just overrated and obtained two individual trophies on his reputation rather than his level of play.

 

[cowboy82nd]

1. Not in the top 50 of his generation so the generation excuse doesn't work.
2. I'm 38. I watched Ovechkin play. The most individualistic player in the history of this game.
3. Damn excuse. Matthews shoots from distance. Laine shoots from distance. And if Ovechkin doesn't have the skill to get close to the goal like Kucherov, we're not going to make him a quality.
4. Where are Washington's many titles ? Only 1 time in the NHL top 4 in 20 years. Below league average.
5. Elite talents who were more efficient in shooting would necessarily have done better if they had made it an obsession, it's mathematical. 12.8% is not crazy.
6. By one shot, he missed being the player who shot the most 11 times in a row. With an efficiency percentage still very far from the top 10 in the league.
7. 2013 Hart Trophy stolen from Crosby.
8 Only 15th goal scorer in playoff.
9 "3 times N°1 PPG" Fake stat. Only one, two if not Forsberg by 0.01 over Crosby and Malkin.

After the other crappy stats that would take hours to check, I leave. His prime was 2005-2010 and that only gave a very individualistic player without a path to the final phase.

And between 2010-2024 ?

All the fraud is there. 14 years later, some are having trouble updating.

Not a season with more than 90 points, negative presence on the ice, not even in the top 50 of the league in career shooting efficiency, fewer assists than goals each almost season.

This guy is not top 10 in history. Kucherov is better than him as a Russian.

He's overrated.


No hate. Just an opinion. Crosby is better than Ovechkin. Malkin is no less strong.
Your intolerance for letting a hockey fan have this opinion is strong.

I never said that Ovechkin was a better hockey player than Crosby. I quoted you saying that Crosby and Malkin both could have more goals than Ovechkin if they weren’t doing other things on the ice. My question to you (besides are you mad at them), is why didn’t they? I know there is more to hockey than scoring goals (that’s why I think Crosby is the better player), but if you don’t score goals you don’t win. So if Crosby and Malkin are so great at it, why don’t they do it more and beat Ovechkin in scoring goals?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Dial back the attacks, please and thank you.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I never said that Ovechkin was a better hockey player than Crosby. I quoted you saying that Crosby and Malkin both could have more goals than Ovechkin if they weren’t doing other things on the ice. My question to you (besides are you mad at them), is why didn’t they? I know there is more to hockey than scoring goals (that’s why I think Crosby is the better player), but if you don’t score goals you don’t win. So if Crosby and Malkin are so great at it, why don’t they do it more and beat Ovechkin in scoring goals?

Because they help their wingers to score goals

 

[BigTomBomber]

Jake Oettinger has been a bottom 5 goalie since the Seattle series last year (Sea, Vegas, this season)

Currently 0.896 / 3.05 this year and was 0.895 / 3.06 in the playoffs last year (and was actually pretty good vs Minnesota in RD 1)

 

[Freaky Styley]

This season I'd offer up Rantanen. Stats aside, the guy has the ability to be a top 5 player in the world on a nightly basis. You see that maybe 10% of games.

 

[Planetov]

7. 2013 Hart Trophy stolen from Crosby.

There it is. It took a few pages. But we finally found out.

My brother in Christ, Crosby vs Ovechkin doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game. They can both be legends of the game! Your boy is one of the greatest hockey players ever, and so is ours. Let’s have fun, huh?

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

There it is. It took a few pages. But we finally found out.

My brother in Christ, Crosby vs Ovechkin doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game. They can both be legends of the game! Your boy is one of the greatest hockey players ever, and so is ours. Let’s have fun, huh?

This is where you literally screw up. I'm not a Crosby fan at all. He is in a different category than Ovechkin.

 

[Unsustainable]

Hughes Family

 

[cowboy82nd]

Because they help their wingers to score goals

So, they can’t score more goals than Ovechkin.

Hughes Family

Even mom and dad?

 

[rielledup]

Right now it's Crosby if you're talking about rating performances this year. The hype about his season is so over the top.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

So, they can’t score more goals than Ovechkin.



Even mom and dad?

Of course they can. When Crosby was injured, Malkin had a sick season. He matched Ovechkin's shot count and put 12 goals in his sights. But usually, he plays on the 2nd line with a more defensive role. Crosby also had a 51-goal season but he's a playmaker. He can't shoot 1000 goals in the season like Ovechkin and carry the puck. In addition to a huge defensive involvement.

Hockey is not just a contest of who can score the most goals.

 

[Planetov]

This is where you literally screw up. I'm not a Crosby fan at all. He is in a different category than Ovechkin.