Is this shady or normal for hockey parents?

[Minnesota Knudsens]

That really isn't enough information to make a decision. If the question is who I keep and who I let go, that is an even tougher decision.

It also depends on team make up. This season I had a player that didn't seem to have the compete required to be successful but ended up being top 5 in scoring and the smartest player on our team. Seemed a little disinterested in tryouts. But I kept him.

You have to look at the entire body of work. There is a grocery list of requirements.

Skating, puck skills, compete, team dynamics, hockey sense, etc etc.

Sorry I can't give a better answer.

That’s fair. As I mentioned above, my son was Player B and after a really good tryout, he lost a roster spot to Player A. I was just wondering whether or not you personally prefer a good player who’s been in your system for a while, or a player with exceptional size and power but is a bit more of a challenge coaching-wise due to inexperience with organized hockey. For example, the coach told me that he thought my son was out of position at times, but I felt as if he could have easily explained to my son what he wanted, and my son would’ve complied.

There isn’t a right or wrong answer I guess and I wasn’t fishing. Just looking for an honest answer. I’m talking about 2 good hockey players. Just thought my son played better when it mattered, but the outcome was predetermined.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So this reply was fascinating to me because my son just finished a rep team tryout and he is Player B. Your description of “Mario” fits my son to an absolute tee. It’s downright eerie. However my son lost one of the final spots to Player A.

My son didn’t do so hot in the drills, except the ones that involved competitive races for the puck. He beat some really good players.

He got into 2 scrimmages. This is where he truly excelled IMO. First one was intersquad. His team won 1-0 and my son scored the only goal. He was fed a weak pass in front of the net, but aggressively fought off the defender, and used a quick release to surprise the goalie. He and another really good player carried play and had the other team hemmed all game long. They put him and this player out to defend the lead on the PK with 30 seconds. They ended up breaking out the puck on a 2 on 0 and my son made a perfect pass for a tap in. Other player accidentally deflected it wide.

Scrimmage 2 the coaches made a point to split my son and this kid up. My son played with lesser players and had an even better game against a rival city. About 4 shots on goal in a really tight defensive game. Then on a breakout he just flat out beat the defenders, used his body to puck protect, out waited the goalie and tucked it in. It was a highlight reel type of goal. He was unlucky not to score on another shot. Hit the goalie in the shoulder and just trickled over the net after glancing the crossbar. Late in the game the coaches put him out on the PK up 4-3. My son was the forechecker and he kept hounding the puck and sent the opposing team back 3 times into their own zone. Killed about a minute ten pretty much by himself. We were stoked on the drive home.

Then he got cut. When I asked the coach for an explanation, all he talked about was the first few days of drills. A lot of his criticisms sounded coachable.

I know Player A very well, the player that got the spot over my son. Not being mean, but I did not notice this kid in either scrimmage, save one really bad angle shot in which he should’ve passed to a player parked in front of the net for a tap in. And he played most of the game on my son’s line. 0 points in 2 games. But his background at lower levels with the organization is really good. Kid uses his smarts to score sneaky goals, but his skill set seemed really ineffective against the better teams we faced in this tryout. Just not physically strong enough.

Still kind of blown away.

Keep in mind my comparison was for two kids who already made team A.

One was really impressive in practice, drills and scrimmages, but couldn’t finish in real games.

The other was a slight goober at drills, did well in scrimmages and really filled the net in real games.

I know with tryouts around us, coaches place a big emphasis on technical proficiency during drills.

Now keep in mind there is always the political aspect.

I’ve beaten that drum pretty hard with examples all over this thread, but the other day my daughter’s friend didn’t make an elite girls team.

Her friend, Jane, was part of this org for years, but the new coach brought in some girls for tryouts that he knows the parents well.

None of these girls are on Jane’s level, but it doesn’t matter because of politics.

Does this other kid you speak of have an in with the coach or an assistant.. team manager… association head, etc?

Think about all the angles, because you’d be surprised how all this shit works behind the scenes.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Keep in mind my comparison was for two kids who already made team A.

One was really impressive in practice, drills and scrimmages, but couldn’t finish in real games.

The other was a slight goober at drills, did well in scrimmages and really filled the net in real games.

I know with tryouts around us, coaches place a big emphasis on technical proficiency during drills.

Now keep in mind there is always the political aspect.

I’ve beaten that drum pretty hard with examples all over this thread, but the other day my daughter’s friend didn’t make an elite girls team.

Her friend, Jane, was part of this org for years, but the new coach brought in some girls for tryouts that he knows the parents well.

None of these girls are on Jane’s level, but it doesn’t matter because of politics.

Does this other kid you speak of have an in with the coach or an assistant.. team manager… association head, etc?

Think about all the angles, because you’d be surprised how all this shit works behind the scenes.

Yeah he very well might. I do know he’s been in the organization a long time and he’s a really hard working kid. Nothing personal against him. My son likes him a lot and this kid has actually lobbied to get my son on a better team before (kids aren’t into politics - they just want to win).

I’ll also admit I’m new to all of this. I originally appealed to Slats because of his previous comments. He seems like an honest evaluator that is more interested in assembling the best team possible. Sometimes I wonder about our organization. I figured he could give me some insight.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah he very well might. I do know he’s been in the organization a long time and he’s a really hard working kid. Nothing personal against him. My son likes him a lot and this kid has actually lobbied to get my son on a better team before (kids aren’t into politics - they just want to win).

I’ll also admit I’m new to all of this. I originally appealed to Slats because of his previous comments. He seems like an honest evaluator that is more interested in assembling the best team possible. Sometimes I wonder about our organization. I figured he could give me some insight.

I obviously can’t speak for Slats, but I’m sure he has experienced enough hockey politics as well.

I’ve played/coached and have been around the game my entire life, so it’s just inevitable and the ugly side to hockey that’s always been there.

Again it’s just a guess on my part.

As I mentioned earlier if your kid didn’t do so hot with the drills during tryouts, he will be ranked lower and showing well in a few scrimmages doesn’t always make up for that.

And if the kid has been in the org a long time, he’s a known commodity and that greatly benefits him.

Is your son new to this org?

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Yeah it’s actually a crazy story. My son never wanted to play hockey until a few years ago. Then all of the sudden he was obsessed with hockey. Friends had told me to prepare for the worst because it’s not a game easily learned by an 11 year old. But he was totally driven to improve. I bought him rollerblades last year and he spent every night of the summer on them. His second year playing he lit up the league and started advancing upward. He just has natural athletic ability and hand eye coordination. I never expected to be here complaining about a rep tryout but here I am. So everything he ventures into hockey-wise, it seems like everyone in the organization is like “who in the F is this kid”. But the fact is that regardless of background and experience, he’s bananas good at the game.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah it’s actually a crazy story. My son never wanted to play hockey until a few years ago. Then all of the sudden he was obsessed with hockey. Friends had told me to prepare for the worst because it’s not a game easily learned by an 11 year old. But he was totally driven to improve. I bought him rollerblades last year and he spent every night of the summer on them. His second year playing he lit up the league and started advancing upward. He just has natural athletic ability and hand eye coordination. I never expected to be here complaining about a rep tryout but here I am. So everything he ventures into hockey-wise, it seems like everyone in the organization is like “who in the F is this kid”. But the fact is that regardless of background and experience, he’s bananas good at the game.

My daughter was on skates at 4, so kids like her who start so young, they tend to ace the drill parts of the tryouts and that really favors them during evals.

To give you an example:

I found out by accident when an assistant coach let it slip to another mom about tryout rankings for Team A that my daughter was ranked third out of 20+ skaters.

The thing is she played so-so in the first two scrimmages because she caught wind that the org wanted to bring back the same team as last year… so subconsciously she wasn’t going all out.

I told her I didn’t hear that (and honestly didn’t) and if she didn’t pick it up for the final scrimmage she might get cut.

So she was lights out in the final scrimmage, but it was only one good scrimmage out of 3.

She had a new coach and independent evaluators ranking her, so it wasn’t like she was getting any favor from her old coach based on last season’s performance.

Her first two scrimmages weren’t disasters or anything, but she was just kind of there and going thru the motions.

I’m 99% sure based on what I know (drills are heavily weighted in player rankings) that she was ranked so high because she just aces almost every drill.

So if your son struggles in drills, that could be the issue here.

Do they have pre-tryout clinics at your org?

Basically where they run kids through the same drills they have to do during tryouts?

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

My daughter was on skates at 4, so kids like her who start so young, they tend to ace the drill parts of the tryouts and that really favors them during evals.

To give you an example:

I found out by accident when an assistant coach let it slip to another mom about tryout rankings for Team A that my daughter was ranked third out of 20+ skaters.

The thing is she played so-so in the first two scrimmages because she caught wind that the org wanted to bring back the same team as last year… so subconsciously she wasn’t going all out.

I told her I didn’t hear that (and honestly didn’t) and if she didn’t pick it up for the final scrimmage she might get cut.

So she was lights out in the final scrimmage, but it was only one good scrimmage out of 3.

She had a new coach and independent evaluators ranking her, so it wasn’t like she was getting any favor from her old coach based on last season’s performance.

Her first two scrimmages weren’t disasters or anything, but she was just kind of there and going thru the motions.

I’m 99% sure based on what I know (drills are heavily weighted in player rankings) that she was ranked so high because she just aces almost every drill.

So if your son struggles in drills, that could be the issue here.

Do they have pre-tryout clinics at your org?

Basically where they run kids through the same drills they have to do during tryouts?

Yeah for sure. But it’s a week of prep for drills that the actual team seems to know inside-out come tryout time. My son wasn’t the only kid that struggled. All of the lower level players struggled. It was as if the incumbent players did those same drills weekly regardless of talent level. In the scrimmages, my son made a few of these kids look downright silly due to his size advantage.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah for sure. But it’s a week of prep for drills that the actual team seems to know inside-out come tryout time. My son wasn’t the only kid that struggled. All of the lower level players struggled. It was as if the incumbent players did those same drills weekly regardless of talent level. In the scrimmages, my son made a few of these kids look downright silly due to his size advantage.

The drills help coaches evaluate players on their skating… transitions, crossovers, turns, puck control, backwards skating, how well they follow instructions, etc

If your son struggles in any of these areas, he’s going to get knocked pretty hard by evaluators.

How good is your sons skating?

Coaches are looking for specific things…

Does he get two clean pushes on his crossovers or is it bunny hops?

How well does he recover when striding?

Does he get low or is he an upright skater?

Can he stop and start quickly?

Is he proficient on all four edges?

Does he understand what linear crossovers are and how to use them effectively?

Can he make punch turns and control the puck?

Can he mohawk well on both sides?

Does he use his edges well on crossunders when he’s going backwards?

These are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head he could get knocked for if he struggles with during drills.

Scoring low in a few of these areas could really tank his ranking, but I’m just spitballing based off you telling me he struggled with drills and could be way off here.

If he’s proficient in most of the areas I mentioned then it’s possible it is politics.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Worth noting that hockey is probably one of the least efficient sports when it comes to how kids move up the chain but populated by overconfident meathead coaches that think they can make quick evaluations and not come off that belief. Not surprising at all it becomes a constant feedback loop with drills over dictating things at tryouts which are in turn heavily dictated by the ones that are running the same drills the prior season. Hockey may genuinely be one of the worst sports when it comes to recognizing kids with natural ability that are a little rough around the edges that could use a bit of polish with some coaching and giving them opportunity. And that’s why you end up with half of junior hockey being kids born in January every year.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

The drills help coaches evaluate players on their skating… transitions, crossovers, turns, puck control, backwards skating, how well they follow instructions, etc

If your son struggles in any of these areas, he’s going to get knocked pretty hard by evaluators.

How good is your sons skating?

Coaches are looking for specific things…

Does he get two clean pushes on his crossovers or is it bunny hops?

How well does he recover when striding?

Does he get low or is he an upright skater?

Can he stop and start quickly?

Is he proficient on all four edges?

Does he understand what linear crossovers are and how to use them effectively?

Can he make punch turns and control the puck?

Can he mohawk well on both sides?

Does he use his edges well on crossunders when he’s going backwards?

These are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head he could get knocked for if he struggles with during drills.

Scoring low in a few of these areas could really tank his ranking, but I’m just spitballing based off you telling me he struggled with drills and could be way off here.

If he’s proficient in most of the areas I mentioned then it’s possible it is politics.

So the evaluators mentioned his left foot crossovers. His right foot is flawless but he struggles a bit going clockwise. When I say “a bit” I mean just that. All of the kids fell a lot during crossovers (even the incumbents) because they were all trying to do them at Mach 5 to impress the coach, including my son.

They mentioned his backwards skating. This is a difficult one for my son because he trains on rollerblades and backwards skating is very different on ice. This is not to say that he can’t skate backwards, just that going around the faceoff circles is a bit more challenging for him.

He struggled with some passing drills and this one blew my mind. I’ve seen my son in-game make perfect saucer passes and otherwise set up teammates. He was the assist leader on his team last year. In the scrimmage he made that perfect pass to his teammate on a 2 on 0 in which the other kid just muffed the angle of his stick on the tap in. Maybe just nerves?

My son’s massive strength is puck control. He skates fast and can often handle the puck perfectly at his top speed. Hence the crazy individual goal I mentioned in the other post. My son will often transition the puck around his own blue line and be off to the races. He’s usually all alone because his teammates can’t keep up to him. Another strength is hand eye. An opponent can tap the puck away from him and he’ll sometimes quick use his feet to put it right back on his stick. Then he has an absolute howitzer of a wrist shot and can complete accurate one timers. He did so a few times in 3 on 3 drills. He was unlucky not to score a few times during the rival city scrimmage. He’ll sometimes shoot so hard it will hit the goalie and still find its way into the net. There were only a few kids in the tryout that could shoot like him.

Highlighting sort of a deficit I feel with minor hockey: Playing at lower levels you just don’t train the same way as the upper levels. Many of the incumbents looked as if they’d done the tryout drills weekly. These kids will often do 5 days a week of power skating, with the cost built into the registration. If my son skated 5 days a week for a year and then played games on weekends, there’s no doubt in my mind that given his freakish natural athleticism, he would be one of the best players on that team. But he won’t get that chance.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Worth noting that hockey is probably one of the least efficient sports when it comes to how kids move up the chain but populated by overconfident meathead coaches that think they can make quick evaluations and not come off that belief. Not surprising at all it becomes a constant feedback loop with drills over dictating things at tryouts which are in turn heavily dictated by the ones that are running the same drills the prior season. Hockey may genuinely be one of the worst sports when it comes to recognizing kids with natural ability that are a little rough around the edges that could use a bit of polish with some coaching and giving them opportunity. And that’s why you end up with half of junior hockey being kids born in January every year.

One of the things I noticed from the drills nights to the scrimmages was that a 4’9” defender might be able to do a five man breakout drill to perfection. But then if this same kid has to box out, or go into a corner with my kid at 5’7”, he’s losing that battle every time. So at age 12 genetics and growth spurts (basically size and strength) are kind of an issue that nobody seems to want to talk about.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So the evaluators mentioned his left foot crossovers. His right foot is flawless but he struggles a bit going clockwise. When I say “a bit” I mean just that. All of the kids fell a lot during crossovers (even the incumbents) because they were all trying to do them at Mach 5 to impress the coach, including my son.

They mentioned his backwards skating. This is a difficult one for my son because he trains on rollerblades and backwards skating is very different on ice. This is not to say that he can’t skate backwards, just that going around the faceoff circles is a bit more challenging for him.

He struggled with some passing drills and this one blew my mind. I’ve seen my son in-game make perfect saucer passes and otherwise set up teammates. He was the assist leader on his team last year. In the scrimmage he made that perfect pass to his teammate on a 2 on 0 in which the other kid just muffed the angle of his stick on the tap in. Maybe just nerves?

My son’s massive strength is puck control. He skates fast and can often handle the puck perfectly at his top speed. Hence the crazy individual goal I mentioned in the other post. My son will often transition the puck around his own blue line and be off to the races. He’s usually all alone because his teammates can’t keep up to him. Another strength is hand eye. An opponent can tap the puck away from him and he’ll sometimes quick use his feet to put it right back on his stick. Then he has an absolute howitzer of a wrist shot and can complete accurate one timers. He did so a few times in 3 on 3 drills. He was unlucky not to score a few times during the rival city scrimmage. He’ll sometimes shoot so hard it will hit the goalie and still find its way into the net. There were only a few kids in the tryout that could shoot like him.

Highlighting sort of a deficit I feel with minor hockey: Playing at lower levels you just don’t train the same way as the upper levels. Many of the incumbents looked as if they’d done the tryout drills weekly. These kids will often do 5 days a week of power skating, with the cost built into the registration. If my son skated 5 days a week for a year and then played games on weekends, there’s no doubt in my mind that given his freakish natural athleticism, he would be one of the best players on that team. But he won’t get that chance.

Based on the little info I have, it definitely sounds like your son is getting knocked for his skating.

The issue your son has to fight against is kind of two fold - kids who have been skating all of their lives can do most of these drills in their sleep.

Problem 2 is most of the drills at my daughter’s tryout, she had done them a billion times throughout the season during practice.

Most org I’m familiar with are the same - seasonal practice drills are similar at tryouts.

So these are massive disadvantages your son has to battle through based on how most evals go.

The only sound advice I can offer is to tell your son to keep his head up and keep working on his skating.

Coaches aren’t going to change how they evaluate, so if he understands what they are looking for and the importance of doing the drills with proficiency, it will help him more in the future.

 

[Slats432]

That’s fair. As I mentioned above, my son was Player B and after a really good tryout, he lost a roster spot to Player A. I was just wondering whether or not you personally prefer a good player who’s been in your system for a while, or a player with exceptional size and power but is a bit more of a challenge coaching-wise due to inexperience with organized hockey. For example, the coach told me that he thought my son was out of position at times, but I felt as if he could have easily explained to my son what he wanted, and my son would’ve complied.

There isn’t a right or wrong answer I guess and I wasn’t fishing. Just looking for an honest answer. I’m talking about 2 good hockey players. Just thought my son played better when it mattered, but the outcome was predetermined.

One thing I will say is a player in the system who is equal to a player from outside the system will get the nod usually. That being said, each individual coach has their own checklist of value.

For me, if the kids are equal in attitude, size, etc, I lean to skill first. I can teach positional hockey, so higher skilled players get the nod from me. Now, that being said, hockey sense is a big skill. So a coach has to determine if he is out of position because of knowledge or sense, which is a greater challenge.

I took a very skilled player this year, and throughout the year had trouble getting him as a winger to stay out of his own corner in the D zone. That was hockey sense, and you can't always find that out in 5 tryout skates and a few practices. He ended up being a good player with some defensive warts.

It also depends on the level. If the coach is looking to develop the best players, then you take the best players and teach them x's and o's. That is what I usually will lean on. Give me a guy that can skate and play, I will teach him where to be as F3. You don't have to be technically the best skater, as long as you can move around well enough to do the job. But if it is U18AAA, then that minutae might get drilled down to. At younger levels, you develop all of those skills.

If he is committed, then losing a spot to possibly a "prettier" player, or a little politics can motivate a kid. I once said that it was one of the best things to happen to my kid to get cut from Peewee AA (U13). It meant to never leave anything to chance. Make it so the coach has no choice but to take you. Got him to Junior A.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

One thing I will say is a player in the system who is equal to a player from outside the system will get the nod usually. That being said, each individual coach has their own checklist of value.

For me, if the kids are equal in attitude, size, etc, I lean to skill first. I can teach positional hockey, so higher skilled players get the nod from me. Now, that being said, hockey sense is a big skill. So a coach has to determine if he is out of position because of knowledge or sense, which is a greater challenge.

I took a very skilled player this year, and throughout the year had trouble getting him as a winger to stay out of his own corner in the D zone. That was hockey sense, and you can't always find that out in 5 tryout skates and a few practices. He ended up being a good player with some defensive warts.

It also depends on the level. If the coach is looking to develop the best players, then you take the best players and teach them x's and o's. That is what I usually will lean on. Give me a guy that can skate and play, I will teach him where to be as F3. You don't have to be technically the best skater, as long as you can move around well enough to do the job. But if it is U18AAA, then that minutae might get drilled down to. At younger levels, you develop all of those skills.

If he is committed, then losing a spot to possibly a "prettier" player, or a little politics can motivate a kid. I once said that it was one of the best things to happen to my kid to get cut from Peewee AA (U13). It meant to never leave anything to chance. Make it so the coach has no choice but to take you. Got him to Junior A.

This is all true. Positives were that my my son knows he can hang at that level, which I think was a huge confidence boost. Also the day he got cut, he had his rollerblades back on that night determined to improve, which I was really proud of.

In this instance the “prettier” player has great counting numbers at the level below, so it seemed as if they were giving the nod to him based on body of work. However this was a tryout at a higher level. 2 games is a really small sample I know, but my son really stood out in both games, getting a goal in both. The first goal was all effort and the second goal was just plain bananas (reminded me of Kadri vs the Pens goal from this year). My son’s team took a lot of penalties in both games so he played a lot on the PK and was really good at disrupting plays in the neutral zone. He was on the ice for zero goals against, but again, small sample.

My son played for 2 different teams last year. On one team he played defence. He didn’t want to because he was happier scoring goals as a centre on his other team. But this team was short on quality defenders. Watching his games all year was hilarious. He was a goal scorer in one league and then a true stay at home defender in the other. He excelled at both. However he played on teams with deficits. So when he played centre, he often couldn’t go to the net because he had to be ready to help out on D. But that helped a bad team win games. The team he played D on was a “better” team, but they had undersized defenders who struggled to exit the D zone and lost a lot of board battles/O zone pinches. My son had to cover for these kids a lot, and I think the coaches were crazy happy about how he stepped up.

So in the tryout I had to keep reminding my son that these were better players, and that for example, he could go to the net instead of hanging back. In his mind he’s showing hustle and playing a 200 foot game, but you’re right, the coach wants to see him in a certain spot on the ice. It remains to be seen whether he could adapt to what the coach wants, but I want to say yes.

 

[Slats432]

This is all true. Positives were that my my son knows he can hang at that level, which I think was a huge confidence boost. Also the day he got cut, he had his rollerblades back on that night determined to improve, which I was really proud of.

In this instance the “prettier” player has great counting numbers at the level below, so it seemed as if they were giving the nod to him based on body of work. However this was a tryout at a higher level. 2 games is a really small sample I know, but my son really stood out in both games, getting a goal in both. The first goal was all effort and the second goal was just plain bananas (reminded me of Kadri vs the Pens goal from this year). My son’s team took a lot of penalties in both games so he played a lot on the PK and was really good at disrupting plays in the neutral zone. He was on the ice for zero goals against, but again, small sample.

My son played for 2 different teams last year. On one team he played defence. He didn’t want to because he was happier scoring goals as a centre on his other team. But this team was short on quality defenders. Watching his games all year was hilarious. He was a goal scorer in one league and then a true stay at home defender in the other. He excelled at both. However he played on teams with deficits. So when he played centre, he often couldn’t go to the net because he had to be ready to help out on D. But that helped a bad team win games. The team he played D on was a “better” team, but they had undersized defenders who struggled to exit the D zone and lost a lot of board battles/O zone pinches. My son had to cover for these kids a lot, and I think the coaches were crazy happy about how he stepped up.

So in the tryout I had to keep reminding my son that these were better players, and that for example, he could go to the net instead of hanging back. In his mind he’s showing hustle and playing a 200 foot game, but you’re right, the coach wants to see him in a certain spot on the ice. It remains to be seen whether he could adapt to what the coach wants, but I want to say yes.

Remind me of age group?