Round 2, Vote 16

[FissionFire]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days by private message
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 100 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines I'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
1. Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
2. Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" etc. when debating.
3. Please treat other debaters with respect
4. Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
5. Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (26):
amnesiac, arrbez, BM67, cottonking, DaveG, EagleBelfour, God Bless Canada, Hockey Outsider, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, MXD, Nalyd Psycho, overpass, pappyline, pitseleh, pnep, Pwnasaurus, raleh, reckoning, seventieslord, Shlomo, Thornton_19, tomi2, Transplanted Caper, Wings4Life, Weztex

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone wishing to participate who has not submitted a list yet will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

On that note, I hope everyone is ready to wrack their brains and debate against some of the best hockey minds on the 'net! Have fun!

Click to read more...

 

[Dark Shadows]

Second post

And Now, to the options

 

[FissionFire]

*** PLEASE NOTE THE VOTING DEADLINE ***

Vote 16 will begin now and debates will run through Wednesday, 7/2. Any extension to this time frame will be annouced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than midnight EST on Wednesday 7/2, and voting will run until this time or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters now. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 6 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 16 will be for places 83 through 88 on the Top 100 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Sid Abel
Johnny Bucyk
Anatoli Firsov
Ron Francis
Bill Gadsby
Dave Keon
Brian Leetch
Gilbert Perreault
Chris Pronger
Borje Salming
Serge Savard
Billy Smith
Scott Stevens

 

[Dark Shadows]

Johnny Bucyk
Bill Cowley
Anatoli Firsov
Ron Francis
Bill Gadsby
Dave Keon
Brian Leetch
Gilbert Perreault
Borje Salming
Serge Savard
Billy Smith
Scott Stevens[/QUOTE]

About damn time. He should have gone before Makarov IMO. He was the Russian Bobby Hull. Been making the arguments for several votes now. No real need to repeat everything.

http://www.eurohockey.net/players/show_player.cgi?serial=27042

http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_player_info.asp?p_id=f010

134 goals in 166 international games.
3 time Soviet MVP

Been waiting for Gadsby too

 

[pitseleh]

Unless I'm missing something didn't Cowley get voted in last round?

So happy to see Gadsby finally make it. This is far too late for him.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Just out of curiosity, I thought we were voting in 7's now to speed it up?

and Cowley made it 4th last round didn't he?

 

[pitseleh]

Just out of curiosity, I thought we were voting in 7's now to speed it up?

and Cowley made it 4th last round didn't he?

I think it's so we can have 3 more votes (83-88, 89-94, 95-100) to finish up.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I'm sure we're voting six because eight were elected last round. And I'm guessing there are only 12 options because we'll be electing six, although we've been going with seven of 15 the previous three rounds, so I don't see a problem with having six of 14. (It might get Jackson, Bentley, Delvecchio, Gardiner or Abel on the list).

I can guarantee that Keon, Perreault and Gadsby will be getting in from my list this round. Arguments will be coming later tonight.

 

[Wings4Life]

I'm sure we're voting six because eight were elected last round. And I'm guessing there are only 12 options because we'll be electing six, although we've been going with seven of 15 the previous three rounds, so I don't see a problem with having six of 14. (It might get Jackson, Bentley, Delvecchio, Gardiner or Abel on the list).

I can guarantee that Keon, Perreault, Bucyk and Gadsby will be getting in from my list this round. Arguments will be coming later tonight.

I'll have to read up a bit on Gadsby, I don't even recall where I rated him on my original list, where I was rather pressed for time.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Won't rate top 6 until Cowley correction is made. But here are three guys who will be voted on this round, regardless of the other options.

*Dave Keon. Best two-way forward for this round, and probably the best defensive forward who has been an option so far. Only a fool would evaluate him based on stats. Definitely the best leader on this list. The best penalty killer on the list. (He led the league in short-handed goals twice). An oddity for centres in that he finished top 10 in goals three times, but was never top 10 in assists. Two top 10 finishes in points, but very consistent, and very good numbers for the Original 6. His lack of offence hurts (one point-per-game season, and he was by no means washed up when expansion came). But his leadership, defensive play, penalty killing and face-off ability, coupled with his very good offence, should have had him in the top 75. Worth noting is that a panel of very, very knowledgeable Leaf observers listed Keon as the greatest Leaf of all-time.

*Bill Gadsby. He might be the most underrated defenceman of all-time. Seven all-star team selections. Six of them came in the 50s. With Harvey, Kelly and Horton for competition. (Not to mention the smooth Bill Quackenbush, double-tough Fern Flaman and steady Tom Johnson, and all-round force Marcel Pronovost). Four seasons with double-digits for goals - a fantastic number considering defencemen didn't join the rush. Third in assists twice. Two seasons with 50 points and three with 40 points - again, incredible numbers. A terrific all-round defenceman. Terrific defensively and a physical force. His hit on Tim Horton rates among the hardest in league history. Not his fault he didn't win a Cup. Unless you played for Detroit in the early to mid 50s, you didn't have much of a shot at a Cup if you played on an American team. Played on stinker teams at his peak, and played only 22 post-season games prior to 35th birthday. Playoff numbers are pretty good for an O6 defenceman. The class of defencemen added in this round.

*Gilbert Perreault. I think he gets a little underrated around here. For whatever reason, hockey people and long-time fans really, really like this guy: No. 49 in THN's top 100 list, and in the top 30 for THN's top 60 since 67 project. (Two pretty different panels compiled those lists). Take that for what it's worth. Best offensive player in this round. He has two second team all-star births, but when you consider the competition, two second team births at centre is damn impressive. A rundown on the all-star centres from Perreault's peak (1972-73 to 1983-84): Esposito (3 times), Clarke (4 times), Dionne (4 times), Sittler, Trottier (4 times), Gretzky (5 times) and Denis Savard. Gretzky, Trottier, Clarke, Esposito and Dionne were all in the top 50. Sittler's name could be up for consideration before this process is finished, and Savard was an offensive dynamo. Perreault was top five in scoring three times. Adept at both goal scoring and playmaking. Remarkably consistent offensively - lowest point-per-game clip was .80. Never won a Cup, but he finished well above a point-per-game in the playoffs in the tough Adams Division.

As of right now, I'd have Bucyk, Savard and Salming as my remaining picks. (I had Smith ahead of Salming on the master list, but I think Salming was better). But I want to see if any more options are added before giving these three guys the go-ahead. If someone can give me a good reason for Firsov, and ease my concerns about competition, I'll vote for him, depending on who else is added for this round.

 

[FissionFire]

Forgot to take out Cowley, sorry everyone.

He's been replaced with Sid Abel and Chris Pronger.

 

[pitseleh]

Evil Speaker did a good summary of Gadsby's accomplishments in the last thread, so I'll copy them here:

Sorry to butt in, but i'm very dissapointed that Bill Gadsby is not eligible for voting. Gadsby played against Doug Harvey and Red Kelly during the prime of their careers,and was cosistently on par or close to their level of production while playing on much worse teams. During the 1950's each player played all ten season and here's how their statistics match up.

Player|GP|G|A|P|AvgG|AvgA|AvgP|D scoring|1stAS|2ndAS|Norris|1stRnd|2ndRnd
Kelly|677|145|273|418|15|28|43|1,1,1,1,1,2,2,3,4|6|2|1,2,2,3|9|5
Harvey|676|57|300|357|6|31|37|1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5|7|1|1,1,1,1,2,4|10|9
Gadsby|637|77|266|343|9|29|38|1,1,1,2,2,2,6,6|3|3|2,2,2,4|4|0

The numbers are close between the 3, and Gadsby, while playing on inferior teams was not a huge step behined the two defensemen already ranked in the top 20. If you look into the 1960's Gadsby racked up another four top five finishes in scoring and was a finalist for the Norris trophy once more.

 

[reckoning]

Can't complain about anything. I think the vote last round went almost exactly as it should have. Nice to see Firsov and Gadsby finally get added.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Forgot to take out Cowley, sorry everyone.

He's been replaced with Sid Abel and Chris Pronger.

So we're voting six of 13? Sounds good.

Abel will definitely make my list this round. Pronger definitely won't - not this round or any other round. Not a reflection of what I think of him; I just think there are better options.

Arguments will be coming for Abel, Bucyk and Savard tonight, although, as I said before, Firsov could make my list with a proper argument.

 

[FissionFire]

I'm sure we're voting six because eight were elected last round. And I'm guessing there are only 12 options because we'll be electing six, although we've been going with seven of 15 the previous three rounds, so I don't see a problem with having six of 14. (It might get Jackson, Bentley, Delvecchio, Gardiner or Abel on the list).

I can guarantee that Keon, Perreault and Gadsby will be getting in from my list this round. Arguments will be coming later tonight.

The standard formula is:

#candidates = 2 x #spots (+ margin of error)

So if the final candidate from the aggregate is within what I've determined to be a very close margin (generally within 10) or if there is a clear gap between segments (such as 50+ between candidates) I'll include 1-3 extra names to the candidate pool to reflect the close voting and reduce the margin of error on the final results. Really, if one player finished 5 points ahead of another on a 1-120 point range over 27 lists to me they were essentially tied on the aggregate and should be included together in votes.

 

[FissionFire]

One other small note before I forget....

I'll be leaving for a wedding at 5am Friday and won't be returning until midnight Monday (all times EST) so if you attempt to contact me during that time I'll be unavailable.

Also, there may be slow updates to the voting this round. The deadline is 2 days prior to the American Independence Day and this year I'll be hosting our annual family reunion over that weekend so I might be extremely pressed for time between the wedding, work, school, and prepping for about 80-100 reunion guests. I'll try to get the results up quickly so that everyone can read it at their leisure, but the voting deadline will likely be extended longer than normal because of the holiday.

 

[God Bless Canada]

All right. Keon, Gadsby and Perreault are my top three. That's set. Here's my bottom three for this round:

4. Johnny Bucyk. I'd like to see Bentley or Jackson on this list before I vote for Bucyk. But the bottom line is I can't keep him out forever. Offence? You got it. Top 10 in goals five times. Top 10 in assists five times. Top 10 in points six times. A very productive player in the post-season, he led the post-season in goals in 72, and he was a point-per-game player in the playoffs post-expansion. He put up very impressive numbers throughout his career with Boston. The numbers in the O6 with Boston don't look great, but those were absolutely abysmal Bruin teams. He's the type of guy who should win the Lady Byng more often - he won two Byng trophies, but he was tough, physical and a heavy hitter. Nasty hip check.

5. Sid Abel. One of several two-way centres who will be options between now and the conclusion of this project. Outside of Keon and Delvecchio, there isn't a better two-way centre up for consideration than Sid Abel. He's better than a certain two-way Detroit centre voted in the last round. Abel has outstanding skill, versatility and leadership. A four-time all-star. (Three at centre, one at LW). Won a Hart Trophy. Led the league in goals in 48-49. Eight times in the top 10 for assists, including six top five finishes. Top 10 in points four times, including four top 5 finishes. He did it all while playing a strong defensive game, and he wasn't afraid to be involved physically. Fantastic leadership - one of the best leaders remaining. Won three Cups, the last two as captain.

6. Serge Savard. Best defensive defenceman among the options for this round. He brought the Nik Lidstrom style to play in his own zone, using hockey sense, smarts, anticipation and size, rather than physical play. It's not that Savard couldn't bring it offensively, he had the talent to, but he came up at a time when defencemen worried about their own zone first, and he brought that mentality to the show. Some good numbers - 60 points once, 40-plus three times, but not what you'd expect with a player of his skill. You'd also expect more than one all-star nod, but competition for those spots was tough, and voters were more focused on stats when Savard played, since they didn't see defencemen as much as they used to. Playoffs is what puts Savard over the top, and cements his legacy. Start with his seven Cups. Then look at his impact. A Conn Smythe in 69. A part of Montreal's Big 3 in the mid-to-late 70s, with Robinson and Lapointe. (Missed being part of an eighth Cup in 71). His playoff production pace improved by .1 points in the playoffs, too, an impressive increase, especially for a defenceman, and he did it all without sacrificing his defensive zone contributions.

 

[DaveG]

So far I'm thinking:

1) Ron Francis - #2 in all-time assists, solid two-way player that garnered a Selke, a great leader practically willing the overmatched Carolina Hurricanes to the 2002 Eastern Conference Title and playing a key part in Pittsburgh's two cups, consistent throughout his career having tied Gordie Howe's record for most consecutive 50+ point seasons. The biggest argument against him is that he was never a huge factor in MVP voting.

2) Anatoli Firsov - One of the greatest forwards from the Big Red Machine. It's about time he made it to the voting for this list. Possibly could have made the top 60 IMO.

everything else is up for grabs. I'm thinking Gadsby, Cowley, Bucyk, Keon and Salming at the moment but could easily get Stevens or any of the others in there.

 

[canucks4ever]

Grant Fuhr should be available for voting before Chris Pronger. If Fuhr wasn't splitting duties with Moog, he would have won the vezina in 1986 and 1987. The guy finished third both years while playing 25 fewer games than the winner.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Worth noting is that Firsov is the first player outside of my top 120 added to the list. (In hindsight, it was a mistake, but I don't think Firsov is a lock for this round. Again, I need a compelling argument).

Three players from outside of my top 100 have been voted in: MacInnis (101, and he should have been higher, but not much), Hainsworth and Fedorov. The latter two won't be advancing on my future list. Leetch and Pronger were outside my top 100.

My arguments against those who I won't be supporting:

*Borje Salming. Tough call. One of the most important players in hockey history. Support for Savard over Salming is simple: playoffs. It's not just that Savard won, it's how he won. Gotta love Salming's toughness and skill.
*Billy Smith. He was a little too high on my master list, but I think he's worthy of discussion at this point. One of the best money goalies of all-time. Regular season portfolio will be easily the worst for a goalie discussed in this project, with just one all-star selection.
*Ron Francis. Another player worthy of discussion at this point, but it's not his time. A personal favourite, though. Lack of all-star nods hurts him. Competition was tough, but when window opened (1995, 1998-2002), he couldn't seize it. Abel is as good, or better, at everything that Francis could do.
*Scott Stevens. Tough for me to keep holding Stevens out. He's my all-time favourite defenceman, and a defining player in his generation. Still, with the exception of 1993-94, he never brought all elements of his game together. Always a menacing presence, but outside of 1993-94, never brought offensive excellence and defensive dominance together at the same time.
*Brian Leetch. Some might be surprised with his high ranking in the THN top 100 list, but I think he falls into the Jagr/Lindros category of guys who were high due to projections of what they would do in the future. Outstanding offensive defenceman, but all-round game is lacking. Fall-off after 1996-97 still confounds me.
*Chris Pronger. Likely the worst player brought into the debate thus far. It's not a slight against Pronger. But better options are out there. Again, a defining player for his generation due to skill, size and toughness. Two concerns stand out: durability (likely lost two Norris Trophies - 2001 and 2007 due to injury) and consistency. Some years, he left you wanting more. I don't think he should be ahead of Black Jack Stewart, one of hockey's ultimate toughies and defensive rocks.

 

[overpass]

Even Strength Contributions as measured by adjusted Plus-Minus (Post-67 only)

Here are my adjusted +/- numbers for the candidates who played since 1967. My basic method is to compare the team's goals for and against while the player is on the ice to the team's goals for and against while the player is off the ice, and then convert that to standings points to correct for scoring levels.

Important note: I changed the way I calculate this, as I have attempted to remove shorthanded goals for and against from the formula. This removes a bias that was previously present against players who played a lot of power play time. This means that the stat doesn't track +/- as closely, but it more accurately represents even-strength contributions.

Standard disclaimers:

1. Measures above average, so gives no credit for average play and may undervalue durability.
2. Measures even strength play only, not special teams.
3. Regular season only.

Here are the numbers for the post-67 candidates, with their best single year, 3-year peak, 7-year short prime, 10-year long prime, and career number.

Name |+/- PAA (1) |Year |+/- PAA (3) |Year |+/- PAA (7) |Year |+/- PAA (10) |Year |Career PAA
SALMING, BORJE |10.3 |1977 |21.9 |77-79 |38.2 |74-80 |44.3 |74-83 |53.5
PRONGER, CHRIS |8.9 |1998 |16.1 |98-00 |25.8 |97-03 |33.2 |97-07 |27.0
FRANCIS, RON |8.6 |1995 |15.4 |95-97 |23.1 |95-01 |26.1 |93-02 |41.1
SAVARD, SERGE |7.0 |1975 |12.3 |73-75 |20.8 |72-78 |22.4 |69-78 |14.1
STEVENS, SCOTT |4.6 |1994 |10.5 |99-01 |17.3 |96-02 |24.2 |92-01 |34.7
LEETCH, BRIAN |5.2 |1997 |6.3 |92-94 |13.1 |91-97 |14.7 |88-97 |12.9
KEON, DAVE |2.9 |1973 |8.9 |72-74 |11.0 |68-74 |5.3 |68-81 |2.1
BUCYK, JOHN |2.8 |1976 |4.4 |70-72 |7.9 |70-76 |5.7 |68-77 |4.6
PERREAULT, GILBERT |2.3 |1979 |4.9 |78-80 |7.2 |78-84 |7.7 |76-85 |0.5

If you only take one thing away from this, make it Borje Salming's excellence at even strength. Salming's career was overshadowed by other strong defencemen as he played on weak teams, but his great play shouldn't be overlooked here.

Pronger's record here is also strong. Add this to his power play and penalty kill contributions and the fact that he may have been the best player in the playoffs in both 2006 and 2007, and I'm definitely going to find a spot for him.

Francis's numbers look a lot better since I fixed the power-play bias, and I may vote for him this time. As a career candidate, he's not my type, and he likely got a boost from Jagr at his peak, but he'll still get consideration.

I actually voted for Savard and Stevens last round, but I'm rethinking that now. They both had solid ES records, but neither was a big power play contributor for much of their careers. If they get my vote, it will be their playoff contributions that put them over the top.

Probably not on Leetch - too inconsistent, although he could dominate.

Keon and Bucyk's records here are incomplete and leave out many of their best years. I've been mentally putting Bucyk together with Francis, and he may get my vote despite his reliance on longevity.

I just don't think Perreault had the all-round game to go here yet.

As for the other candidates, I'm thinking yes to Gadsby and Firsov, off the top of my head and from my master list. Probably not Abel.

I almost certainly won't vote for Smith, as I think he benefited a lot from the players in front of him. I'm going to try to look at his performance vs his backups if I get time - although it may not convince anyone, as anyone voting for Smith is probably doing so based on 4 cups and 69 playoff wins in 5 years.

 

[overpass]

Well, I decided to throw the numbers together of Billy Smith in the regular season vs his backups.

Smith vs Desjardins (1973-75)

Name|Minutes |GAA |W%
Billy Smith |4737 |3.56 |0.301
Gerry Desjardins |4443 |4.00 |0.247

Smith vs Resch (1975-81)

Name |Minutes |GAA |W%
Billy Smith |16603 |2.81 |0.655
Glenn Resch |16288| 2.55| 0.662

Smith vs Melanson (1981-84)

Name |Minutes |GAA |W%
Billy Smith |7304 |3.08 |0.580
Roland Melanson |6594 |3.03 |0.665

Smith vs Hrudey (1984-88)

Name |Minutes |GAA |W%
Billy Smith |8757 |3.57 |0.550
Kelly Hrudey |10283 |3.36 |0.551

Smith vs Backups (1973-88)

Name |Minutes |GAA |W%
Billy Smith |37401 |3.13 |0.573
Backups| 37608 |3.03 |0.583

In the regular season Billy Smith split time with 4 different goalies, and was matched or slightly outplayed by 3 of them.

The argument for Smith is going to be his Cups. I think that his playoff success certainly gives him an important place in hockey history, but being a good goalie with an incredible dynasty team in front of you doesn't make you a top-100 player, IMO.

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

All-star teams

Name | Position | 1st AST | 2nd AST | 1st AST span | 2nd AST span
Sid Abel | C | 2 | 2 | 1949-1950 | 1942-1951
Johnny Bucyk | LW | 1 | 1 | 1971 | 1968
Ron Francis | C | 0 | 0 |
Bill Gadsby | D | 3 | 4 | 1956-1959 | 1953-1965
Dave Keon | C | 0 | 2 | | 1962-1971
Brian Leetch | D | 3 | 3 | 1989-1997 | 1991-1996
Gilbert Perreault | C | 0 | 2 | | 1976-1977
Chris Pronger | D | 1 | 3 | 2000 | 1998-2007
Börje Salming | D | 1 | 5 | 1977 | 1975-1980
Serge Savard | D | 0 | 1 | | 1979
Billy Smith | G | 1 | 0 | 1982
Scott Stevens | D | 2 | 3 | 1988-1994 | 1992-2001

League leaders:

Name | Season wins | Years | Season SO | Years | Playoff SO | Years
Billy Smith | 32 | 82 | | | 2, 1, 1 | 83*, 82**, 79***

* tied with Bob Sauve
** tied with Tony Esposito
*** tied with John Davidson and Glenn Resch

Name | GP | Career GAA | Career SO | Playoff GP | Playoff career GAA | Playoff career SO
Billy Smith | 680 | 3.17 | 22 | 132 | 2.73 | 5

Career PPG

Name | PPG | Rank all time
Sid Abel | 0.77 | N/A
Johnny Bucyk | 0.89 | 106
Ron Francis | 1.04 | 38
Bill Gadsby | 0.46 | N/A
Dave Keon | 0.76 | 185
Brian Leetch | 0.85 | 128
Gilbert Perreault | 1.11 | 21
Chris Pronger | 0.59 | N/A
Börje Salming | 0.69 | N/A
Serge Savard | 0.42 | N/A
Scott Stevens | 0.56 | N/A

Name | Playoff PPG | Rank all time
Sid Abel | 0.60 | 190
Johnny Bucyk | 0.83 | 87
Ron Francis | 0.84 | 82
Bill Gadsby | 0.40 | N/A
Dave Keon | 0.74 | 116
Brian Leetch | 1.02 | 26
Gilbert Perreault | 1.14 | 8
Chris Pronger | 0.69 | 143
Börje Salming | 0.60 | N/A
Serge Savard | 0.52 | 226
Scott Stevens | 0.51 | 232

Name | Higher ranking in PPG/higher PPG
Sid Abel | Regular season
Johnny Bucyk | Playoffs
Ron Francis | Regular season
Bill Gadsby | Regular season
Dave Keon | Playoffs
Brian Leetch | Playoffs
Gilbert Perreault | Playoffs
Chris Pronger | Playoffs
Börje Salming | Regular season
Serge Savard | Playoffs
Scott Stevens | Regular season

Playoff GWG

Name | GWG | Years
Brian Leetch | 4 | 1994*

* tied with Mark Messier

Playoff points leaders

Name | Points | Years
Brian Leetch | 34 | 1994

Single season records

Name | Goals | Points | +/-
Sid Abel | 34 | 69 | N/A
Johhny Bucyk | 51 | 116 | 36
Ron Francis | 32 | 119 | 30
Bill Gadsby | 14 | 51 | N/A
Dave Keon | 38 | 76 | 24
Brian Leetch | 23 | 102 | 31
Gilbert Perreault | 44 | 113 | 32
Chris Pronger | 14 | 62 | 52
Börje Salming | 19 | 78 | 45
Serge Savard | 20 | 60 | 79
Scott Stevens | 21 | 78 | 53

As of right now, Firsov, Perreault and four defensemen will be my top 6. I only expect to vote for three or four of the other guys later on, but that will obviously depend on what other names will come up.

I'd vote for Fuhr ahead of Smith, and I'm not sure I would vote for Fuhr at all.

Here's why I think Salming is one of the top defensemen this round:

In his second NHL season, Börje started being seen as one of the top four defensemen in the league. Even though his peak didn't last over the entirety of Salming's stay in the NHL, his tenure lasted over 1100 games.

Season | 1st AST | 1st AST | 2nd AST | 2nd AST | Norris Trophy
1973-74 | Bobby Orr | Brad Park | Barry Ashbee | Bill White | Bobby Orr
1974-75 | Bobby Orr | Denis Potvin | Guy Lapointe | Börje Salming | Bobby Orr
1975-76 | Brad Park | Denis Potvin | Guy Lapointe | Börje Salming | Denis Potvin
1976-77 | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Guy Lapointe | Denis Potvin | Larry Robinson
1977-78 | Brad Park | Denis Potvin | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Denis Potvin
1978-79 | Denis Potvin | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Serge Savard | Denis Potvin
1979-80 | Raymond Bourque | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Jim Schoenfeld | Larry Robinson

In my opinion, there shouldn't be much seperation between Savard and Salming on this list.

 

[pappyline]

All right. Keon, Gadsby and Perreault are my top three. That's set. Here's my bottom three for this round:

4. Johnny Bucyk. I'd like to see Bentley or Jackson on this list before I vote for Bucyk. But the bottom line is I can't keep him out forever. Offence? You got it. Top 10 in goals five times. Top 10 in assists five times. Top 10 in points six times. A very productive player in the post-season, he led the post-season in goals in 72, and he was a point-per-game player in the playoffs post-expansion. He put up very impressive numbers throughout his career with Boston. The numbers in the O6 with Boston don't look great, but those were absolutely abysmal Bruin teams. He's the type of guy who should win the Lady Byng more often - he won two Byng trophies, but he was tough, physical and a heavy hitter. Nasty hip check.

5. Sid Abel. One of several two-way centres who will be options between now and the conclusion of this project. Outside of Keon and Delvecchio, there isn't a better two-way centre up for consideration than Sid Abel. He's better than a certain two-way Detroit centre voted in the last round. Abel has outstanding skill, versatility and leadership. A four-time all-star. (Three at centre, one at LW). Won a Hart Trophy. Led the league in goals in 48-49. Eight times in the top 10 for assists, including six top five finishes. Top 10 in points four times, including four top 5 finishes. He did it all while playing a strong defensive game, and he wasn't afraid to be involved physically. Fantastic leadership - one of the best leaders remaining. Won three Cups, the last two as captain.

6. Serge Savard. Best defensive defenceman among the options for this round. He brought the Nik Lidstrom style to play in his own zone, using hockey sense, smarts, anticipation and size, rather than physical play. It's not that Savard couldn't bring it offensively, he had the talent to, but he came up at a time when defencemen worried about their own zone first, and he brought that mentality to the show. Some good numbers - 60 points once, 40-plus three times, but not what you'd expect with a player of his skill. You'd also expect more than one all-star nod, but competition for those spots was tough, and voters were more focused on stats when Savard played, since they didn't see defencemen as much as they used to. Playoffs is what puts Savard over the top, and cements his legacy. Start with his seven Cups. Then look at his impact. A Conn Smythe in 69. A part of Montreal's Big 3 in the mid-to-late 70s, with Robinson and Lapointe. (Missed being part of an eighth Cup in 71). His playoff production pace improved by .1 points in the playoffs, too, an impressive increase, especially for a defenceman, and he did it all without sacrificing his defensive zone contributions.

I have the exact same players as my top 6 but in a different order. For 6th it was close between Savard, Salming & Firsov. Firsov to me is a a tough call. there is no question that he was an incredible player. However, he never came up against top level Canadian talent so we really don't know how good he was. At this stage, it seems to me. that we are trying to be politically correct by voting in pre 72 Soviet players.

Two players outside of my top 120 have been selected so far and I accept that this was an ommission on my part.

Two players in my 101-120 list have also been selected. Brodeur, I under-rated and he would move up considerably on my list but not as high as 34. Surprised that McInnes came in so high as I would still have him in the 101-120 range. No way, he should go ahead of Gadsby.

From my original list, there are 8 players that would have been up for consideration by now. Of these, I now realize I over-rated 3 of them.

If this was a free for all now, I would select:

1.Jackson
2.Gardiner
3.Bentley
4.Gadsby
5.Perrault
6.Delvecchio

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[ck26]

I want a bunch-a-bunch-a defensemen from this troupe. Serge Savard, Scott Stevens, Gilbert Perreault, Brian Leetch, Borje Salming and Billy Smith are starting out in the lead in roughly that order.

I'd really like someone to shoot holes in Serge Savard and Billy Smith -- both these guys definately benefited from playing with some great teams, but I tend to believe they were significant sources of that greatness, not beneficiaries. What I've read so far isn't at all convincing -- if anyone has more info about why it's way too early for them, I'd love it.