Around the League

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Vancouver. I simply can’t cheer a Ken Holland team.

Agreed. I'd be team Oilers all the way but can't stomach seeing Holland win another cup after running the Wings into the ditch. Perry being on the team doesn't help either.

 

[RRhoads]

Edmonton here. Much more tolerable fans.

 

[Oddbob]

Agreed. I'd be team Oilers all the way but can't stomach seeing Holland win another cup after running the Wings into the ditch. Perry being on the team doesn't help either.

Perry and Kane. That said, never been a fan of Vancouver for some reason.

 

[jkutswings]

Soooo…we pulling for Edmonton or Vancouver?

Dallas.

 

[19 for president]

Dallas.

I am also pulling for Dallas of the teams left as I'd like to see Pavelski win a cup. The guy is an absolute gamer.

Of Edm/Van I guess I'm pulling for Van. Don't want to see NYR or Florida win.

 

[jkutswings]

I am also pulling for Dallas of the teams left as I'd like to see Pavelski win a cup. The guy is an absolute gamer.

Of Edm/Van I guess I'm pulling for Van. Don't want to see NYR or Florida win.

I'm very intrigued to see the Rangers play the Panthers. But not really cheering for either. I think I predicted Rangers/Stars before the playoffs started, so it would be cool to get both correct.

An ideal scenario would be Dallas winning it all, but immediately before the championship ceremony, Jamie Benn getting blacklisted from the league and not getting his name on the Cup.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Agreed. I'd be team Oilers all the way but can't stomach seeing Holland win another cup after running the Wings into the ditch. Perry being on the team doesn't help either.

So the 20 years of exceptional hockey with the best team in the league that he was largely responsible for wasn’t worth a lot. I really don’t understand this logic at all…

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Still very much in the Edmonton camp. I think we get Dallas vs Florida. Even with Suter and Pavelski pulling at my team USA heartstrings, I would rather not see Benn win and will pull for Florida in that scenario.

 

[norrisnick]

So the 20 years of exceptional hockey with the best team that in the league that he was largely responsible for wasn’t worth a lot. I really don’t understand this logic at all…

Say you're in a 20-25 year relationship. 15-20 years are great. The last 5-10 awful and ultimately leading to a messy divorce. Are you looking back at that relationship fondly?

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Still very much in the Edmonton camp. I think we get Dallas vs Florida. Even with Suter and Pavelski pulling at my team USA heartstrings, I would rather not see Benn win and will pull for Florida in that scenario.

As much as I hate Benn I hate Tkachuk and Ekblad even worse. Florida just seems like a team of dicks.

 

[Konnan511]

I really hope Utah goes with the Salt Lake City Bitch Pigeons. I think that is the best name I have seen by far.

 

[Oddbob]

Dallas.

Then you rout for Benn Crossheck King.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

So the 20 years of exceptional hockey with the best team in the league that he was largely responsible for wasn’t worth a lot. I really don’t understand this logic at all…

I never said that.

If you're going back to a 20 year period when the Wings are among the best teams in the league I think you're shortchanging some people when you say Holland was largely responsible for it. He was a part of those teams for sure. largely responsible? No. He didn't become GM until before the 98 season.

The last 20 years he was largely responsible for, which included making some great adjustments to the cap era and continuing the Wings success but also running the team into the ditch.

Frankly Holland is a tale of two careers. It's baffling how bad he's been in the back half of it. So yeah, to hear people falling all over themselves to praise him if he won in Edmonton would be a bit much for me as we're here with the Wings still crawling out of the cellar.

Imagine if he hadn't refused to step down when Ilitch originally wanted Yzerman to be the GM? It's possible Yzerman wouldn't be the GM he is now, but could he possibly have done more damage to the franchise than Holland? It's more likely the hole would at least be not as deep.

Perry and Kane. That said, never been a fan of Vancouver for some reason.

I used to be a fan of Vancouver in the Bure era, but man they were so awful here all season in 2011 and some of the later seasons I still apparently have PTSD.

Kane I honestly have less problem with than Perry. I'm not a fan, but most of his shitshow has been off the ice drama. And I probably go easy on him for KOing Matt Cooke all those years ago.

 

[ricky0034]

I never said that.

If you're going back to a 20 year period when the Wings are among the best teams in the league I think you're shortchanging some people when you say Holland was largely responsible for it. He was a part of those teams for sure. largely responsible? No. He didn't become GM until before the 98 season.

The last 20 years he was largely responsible for, which included making some great adjustments to the cap era and continuing the Wings success but also running the team into the ditch.

Frankly Holland is a tale of two careers. It's baffling how bad he's been in the back half of it. So yeah, to hear people falling all over themselves to praise him if he won in Edmonton would be a bit much for me as we're here with the Wings still crawling out of the cellar.

Imagine if he hadn't refused to step down when Ilitch originally wanted Yzerman to be the GM? It's possible Yzerman wouldn't be the GM he is now, but could he possibly have done more damage to the franchise than Holland? It's more likely the hole would at least be not as deep.



I used to be a fan of Vancouver in the Bure era, but man they were so awful here all season in 2011 and some of the later seasons I still apparently have PTSD.

Kane I honestly have less problem with than Perry. I'm not a fan, but most of his shitshow has been off the ice drama. And I probably go easy on him for KOing Matt Cooke all those years ago.

and you're shortchanging Holland here

he was an Assistant GM for a few years before he got the full title and was reportedly essentially a co-gm with Devellano and Bowman

and before that he spent 7 years as the teams Director of Amateur Scouting

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I never said that.

If you're going back to a 20 year period when the Wings are among the best teams in the league I think you're shortchanging some people when you say Holland was largely responsible for it. He was a part of those teams for sure. largely responsible? No. He didn't become GM until before the 98 season.

The last 20 years he was largely responsible for, which included making some great adjustments to the cap era and continuing the Wings success but also running the team into the ditch.

Frankly Holland is a tale of two careers. It's baffling how bad he's been in the back half of it. So yeah, to hear people falling all over themselves to praise him if he won in Edmonton would be a bit much for me as we're here with the Wings still crawling out of the cellar.

Imagine if he hadn't refused to step down when Ilitch originally wanted Yzerman to be the GM? It's possible Yzerman wouldn't be the GM he is now, but could he possibly have done more damage to the franchise than Holland? It's more likely the hole would at least be not as deep.



I used to be a fan of Vancouver in the Bure era, but man they were so awful here all season in 2011 and some of the later seasons I still apparently have PTSD.

Kane I honestly have less problem with than Perry. I'm not a fan, but most of his shitshow has been off the ice drama. And I probably go easy on him for KOing Matt Cooke all those years ago.

Holland also had some terrific supporting staff over the years.

The triumvirate years of Devellano, Bowman, Holland.
Having Jim Nill to lean on.
Joe McDonnell found some gems for Detroit.
Hakan found some gems for Detroit.
For all the bad that Babcock became known for, he was still a solid coach.
Yzerman was around after he retired in a learning/advising role.

Eventually they all left or took less active roles (Devellano) or were marginalized (Hakan). When Holland was left as the lone man in charge the guys that he hired after the brain drain were terrible replacements. Look at the lack of quality in the assistant coaches Detroit hired after Mclellan and McLean. Bill Peters, Todd Phillips, Jeff Blashill, Dan Bylsma, Doug Houda, John Torchetti, Tony Granato...not the best bunch.
Then look at how long it took the Wings to develop a proper analytics team; They were 5 years behind the curve in 2015.
Tyler Wright taking over scouting in 2014 produced exactly 2 decent NHLers in a 5 year span in Larkin and Hronek. Holland stopped listening to Hakan.

Holland's Red Wings were far behind where the rest of the NHL was in terms of investing and modernizing team infrastructure. Look at how much Yzerman has done just to build the infrastructure in team management after taking over from Holland.

TLDR, Holland doesn't deserve as much credit as some give him over the years, but he most definitely deserves the lions share of the blame for the way things have gone recently.

 

[DoMakc]

Holland also had some terrific supporting staff over the years.

The triumvirate years of Devellano, Bowman, Holland.
Having Jim Nill to lean on.
Joe McDonnell found some gems for Detroit.
Hakan found some gems for Detroit.
For all the bad that Babcock became known for, he was still a solid coach.
Yzerman was around after he retired in a learning/advising role.

Eventually they all left or took less active roles (Devellano) or were marginalized (Hakan). When Holland was left as the lone man in charge the guys that he hired after the brain drain were terrible replacements. Look at the lack of quality in the assistant coaches Detroit hired after Mclellan and McLean. Bill Peters, Todd Phillips, Jeff Blashill, Dan Bylsma, Doug Houda, John Torchetti, Tony Granato...not the best bunch.
Then look at how long it took the Wings to develop a proper analytics team; They were 5 years behind the curve in 2015.
Tyler Wright taking over scouting in 2014 produced exactly 2 decent NHLers in a 5 year span in Larkin and Hronek. Holland stopped listening to Hakan.

Holland's Red Wings were far behind where the rest of the NHL was in terms of investing and modernizing team infrastructure. Look at how much Yzerman has done just to build the infrastructure in team management after taking over from Holland.

TLDR, Holland doesn't deserve as much credit as some give him over the years, but he most definitely deserves the lions share of the blame for the way things have gone recently.

That's some revisionist history. Holland become a de-facto GM in 1994 after Bowman and Devellano tried to trade Yzerman for Yashin and Illitch said "nope". Before that Holland was in charge for amateur scouting for the best drafts in Red Wings history. Everyone who says Holland does not deserve credit for the 4 cups needs his brain examined for being a Gniwder.

And Joe McDonnell's drafts sucked. You cannot blame Holland for Sheahans and McCollums and praise him - only Jensen, Helm and Abdelkader were good picks from NA. Red Wings drafts in 2005-2013 were Tyler Wright level.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

That's some revisionist history. Holland become a de-facto GM in 1994 after Bowman and Devellano tried to trade Yzerman for Yashin and Illitch said "nope". Before that Holland was in charge for amateur scouting for the best drafts in Red Wings history. Everyone who says Holland does not deserve credit for the 4 cups needs his brain examined for being a Gniwder.

And Joe McDonnell's drafts sucked. You cannot blame Holland for Sheahans and McCollums and praise him - only Jensen, Helm and Abdelkader were good picks from NA. Red Wings drafts in 2005-2013 were Tyler Wright level.

Nyquist, Tatar, Franzen, Hudler, Filppula, Howard, Mantha and Bertuzzi. Not a terrific bunch, I'll admit. The Wings also traded away most of their prime picks or were picking way late. Look at what he's done in Dallas since going there.

Hintz, Robertson, Heiskanen, Oettinger, Bourque, Stankoven, Johnston, Harley all look terrific with the team. Sure they've had some stinky drafts (notably 2014 and 2016)

 

[DoMakc]

Nyquist, Tatar, Franzen, Hudler, Filppula, Howard, Mantha and Bertuzzi. Not a terrific bunch, I'll admit. The Wings also traded away most of their prime picks or were picking way late. Look at what he's done in Dallas since going there.

Hintz, Robertson, Heiskanen, Oettinger, Bourque, Stankoven, Johnston, Harley all look terrific with the team. Sure they've had some stinky drafts (notably 2014 and 2016)

Nyquist, Tatar, Franzen, Hudler, Filppula have something in common, like being from area of responsibility of director of European scouting . Bertuzzi is Draper's Good for him being good in Dallas, it does not change that he had much more premium picks than Hakan and Hakan outperformed him greatly. His drafts contributed greatly to the current situation.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Nyquist, Tatar, Franzen, Hudler, Filppula have something in common, like being from area of responsibility of director of European scouting . Bertuzzi is Draper's Good for him being good in Dallas, it does not change that he had much more premium picks than Hakan and Hakan outperformed him greatly. His drafts contributed greatly to the current situation.

I don't think we can blame McDonnell's bad picks between 2004 and 2013 for the state of Detroit anymore. At a certain point that falls to leadership for not doing something about that. That was Holland.

Was he good in the 80s and 90s? Yes. Was he good in the 00s? Less so. Was he good in the 10s? f*** no.

The league changed and passed Holland by. He should have retired 14 years ago and let young Yzerman take his spot.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

and you're shortchanging Holland here

he was an Assistant GM for a few years before he got the full title and was reportedly essentially a co-gm with Devellano and Bowman

and before that he spent 7 years as the teams Director of Amateur Scouting

I said he was a factor, but he wasn't "largely responsible" when you consider all the guys above and around him.

I never heard anything about him essentially being "co-GM with Devellano and Bowman." Seems like they just could've given him the title at that point if it was truly a peer to peer relationship. More likely is that it wasn't.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

Say you're in a 20-25 year relationship. 15-20 years are great. The last 5-10 awful and ultimately leading to a messy divorce. Are you looking back at that relationship fondly?

Very interesting analogy. Expand on it a bit, did you have kids during the relationship(kind of like winning championships)?

Different people would give different answers to this for sure.

 

[RRhoads]

Very interesting analogy. Expand on it a bit, did you have kids during the relationship(kind of like winning championships)?

Different people would give different answers to this for sure.

Could expand a bit more. What if the spouse let the house on fire before leaving, after spending all your money?

 

[Konnan511]

I've changed my mind, I prefer the name of the Utah hockey team to be the Utah Deads...

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Say you're in a 20-25 year relationship. 15-20 years are great. The last 5-10 awful and ultimately leading to a messy divorce. Are you looking back at that relationship fondly?

So the messy divorce was following ownership orders then making way for the most popular person in Franchise history. What a monster…

Sports fandom is irrational so I get it. But yeah I still give the guy that headed three cups and played a massive part in 4 tons of love. Keep in mind Ken Holland was the one dissenting vote in the three headed GM setup that was trading Yzerman to Ottawa. It is actually why he gained control after Ilitch killed the deal.

Stay around long enough and live to see yourself become the villain.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

That's some revisionist history. Holland become a de-facto GM in 1994 after Bowman and Devellano tried to trade Yzerman for Yashin and Illitch said "nope". Before that Holland was in charge for amateur scouting for the best drafts in Red Wings history. Everyone who says Holland does not deserve credit for the 4 cups needs his brain examined for being a Gniwder.

And Joe McDonnell's drafts sucked. You cannot blame Holland for Sheahans and McCollums and praise him - only Jensen, Helm and Abdelkader were good picks from NA. Red Wings drafts in 2005-2013 were Tyler Wright level.

That's quite the claim to make right after accusing someone else of revisionist history.

The Wings were definitely listening to trade offers with Yzerman around that time. One for one with Lafontaine, then with Yashin. But all I've ever seen is a rumor about Ilitch killing the deal. I can't find any reputable source about it getting any further then the Wings listening and Bowman, ever the manipulative asshole, making sure Yzerman knew about it while not discussing it with him directly.

But it's become accepted as fact. And now you're saying the next chapter is Ilitch effectively stripped Bowman and Devellano of their GM roles and gave it to Holland in 94? Yet kept them as GM for 3 more years, Bowman as coach for 8 more years. And Devellano still as a loyal member of the Wings to this day?

This from the guy (Ilitch) who wanted to trade Yzerman on draft day but was convinced to listen to Devellano?

Here's the Lafontaine deal from Devellano's perspective:

“Sexton asked Scotty if he would ever entertain such a deal,” Devellano recalled. Bowman did entertain the idea. He would have had to receive permission from Ilitch to trigger such a trade, but it never came to that. What Bowman did was let it be known Yzerman was available.

That time Steve Yzerman ripped Detroit Red Wings over trade rumors

There was a time Steve Yzerman was so angry he welcomed a trade from the Detroit Red Wings

www.freep.com

Everything I heard and read around that time and years after was it was Bowman pulling a Herb Brooks. Sending a clear message that no one, not even the captain is safe if they don't deliver results. But in the last few years it's become Ilitch saved the day.