Pascal Vincent: Stay or Go?

[CBJx614]

Prioritising optics over the good of the team is always a mistake, I'd agree. Personally, I'm for giving Vincent another year, though. But not because it would look bad to fire him. Rather, there was improvement from Larsen's last year and I'd like for him to get a whole off-season as well as some input on the roster. Furthermore, I am generally skeptical of judging a coach on one season.

Agree 100%. Might be a different feeling had he been the guy from the start and had the whole off-season to prepare and they came out like they did. But with the shit show that was before the season started, you have to give Vincent another chance unless some unicorn of a coach becomes available and wants to coach here.

 

[GoJackets1]

This isn’t necessarily related to Vincent, but with how well Cleveland has done I can’t help but wonder, by the time our contention window might roll around, if Vogelhuber will be the coach of the big club. We’d probably need 2-3 more years out of someone else whether it’s Vincent or another guy, before making that move though.

Anyone who is more familiar with the Monsters/Vogelhuber’s coaching feel free to correct me, but from a relative outsider’s perspective he seems to be doing very well and the players like to play hard for him.

 

[Jovavic]

He's from Columbus

 

[GoJackets1]

He's from Columbus

Yeah lol. I don’t know if it’s trauma from losing Bednar or what, but if we have our own up and coming AHL HC who seems to be doing well, I’d be happy to give him the job in a couple of years if that trend continues.

Oh, and he’s from Columbus.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Yeah lol. I don’t know if it’s trauma from losing Bednar or what, but if we have our own up and coming AHL HC who seems to be doing well, I’d be happy to give him the job in a couple of years if that trend continues.

Oh, and he’s from Columbus.

There is no doubt they are conscious (front office) of letting Bernar slip out of their grasp … Bobby Mac wondered out loud if Vogel makes a deep run or wins the Calder , if the Bluejackets wouldn’t be forced to make that move , to not let part deux occur . There is no doubt he’s going to be a hot commodity.. Bednar was who he models the most in how he coaches players according to Bobby Mac… Everyone in that room is willing to fight a much bigger man , that’s how much they love and respect him… From the few games I’ve got to watch , team seems to play with a much better structure than Columbus does.. especially their forecheck . Seems like they gain considerable possession time with how they forecheck.. You can see why ….

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

FWIW, I think most players in the AHL play hard for their coach like their paychecks depend on it because they kinda do.

He very well could be a great coach but if he's the next one I hope they assess the situation individually and not just hire him because of FOMO on Bednar.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

If they fire Vincent for Vogelhuber I would be convinced JD is just throwing stuff at the wall hoping it sticks and officially join the crowd of people who think he doesn’t know what he’s doing. Talk about rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

This isn’t an indictment against vogelhuber or for vincent, but it makes no sense.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I'm no sure if he has much if a chance to stick in this organization but perhaps this statement seems to be a big difference between Vogelhuber and PV

 

[Viqsi]

In case anyone was daydreaming in this direction:

 

[CBJx614]

I'm no sure if he has much if a chance to stick in this organization but perhaps this statement seems to be a big difference between Vogelhuber and PV

He's also a "older" veteran with NHL exp on a blueline full of kids with little to no NHL experience.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

He's also a "older" veteran with NHL exp on a blueline full of kids with little to no NHL experience.

Not focusing on the player specifically but my biggest beef with PV is the fact he staples people to the bench for making mistakes. Vogelhuber seems to let them play through it and learn.

But on the flip side, I went to one Monsters game this Fall and it was right after Johnson got demoted and he got stapled to the bench after a turnover in the 3rd period so

 

[Monstershockey]

Not focusing on the player specifically but my biggest beef with PV is the fact he staples people to the bench for making mistakes. Vogelhuber seems to let them play through it and learn.

But on the flip side, I went to one Monsters game this Fall and it was right after Johnson got demoted and he got stapled to the bench after a turnover in the 3rd period so

Do you think he shouldn't have been benched in that situation? The Monsters just got on a PP, it was a tie game with about 5 minutes left in the game, and Johnson was trying to be too slick with the puck at his own blue line, turned it over and the result was a short handed goal against, and they lost the lead.

Luckily they were still able to pull the game out, but I had no issue with Vogelhuber holding him accountable.

These guys aren't just getting benched for one mistake. I am sure it is cumulative, and at some point, the player ends up on the bench. You can only tell people so many times before you have to do something else to get the point across. To us it looks like one mistake, but we aren't in the room, or on the ice for practice, so we don't see the coaches telling these guys not to do certain things over and over again.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Do you think he shouldn't have been benched in that situation? The Monsters just got on a PP, it was a tie game with about 5 minutes left in the game, and Johnson was trying to be too slick with the puck at his own blue line, turned it over and the result was a short handed goal against, and they lost the lead.

Luckily they were still able to pull the game out, but I had no issue with Vogelhuber holding him accountable.

These guys aren't just getting benched for one mistake. I am sure it is cumulative, and at some point, the player ends up on the bench. You can only tell people so many times before you have to do something else to get the point across. To us it looks like one mistake, but we aren't in the room, or on the ice for practice, so we don't see the coaches telling these guys not to do certain things over and over again.

Not sure. maybe it was a directive from above.

As I recall, it was his first or 2nd game after being demoted so I'm not sure if he'd been there long enough to develop a trend of repeated mistakes at the AHL level. He very well could have been instructed on what to do and carry over from the NHL level.

My biggest beef with PV and the organization as a whole this season was prioritizing winning over development for far too long once the season was lost early on. While we didn't have the NHL depth to allow people to play in Cleveland, there were many times players needed to play through their mistakes instead of running Boone Jenner into the ground with too many minutes for example.

I still firmly believe these kids need to play though it. Unless the player has a bad attitude about it, the failure to get the desire results repeatedly is more of a reflection on the quality of the instruction given.

 

[Monstershockey]

Not sure. maybe it was a directive from above.

As I recall, it was his first or 2nd game after being demoted so I'm not sure if he'd been there long enough to develop a trend of repeated mistakes at the AHL level. He very well could have been instructed on what to do and carry over from the NHL level.

My biggest beef with PV and the organization as a whole this season was prioritizing winning over development for far too long once the season was lost early on. While we didn't have the NHL depth to allow people to play in Cleveland, there were many times players needed to play through their mistakes instead of running Boone Jenner into the ground with too many minutes for example.

I still firmly believe these kids need to play though it. Unless the player has a bad attitude about it, the failure to get the desire results repeatedly is more of a reflection on the quality of the instruction given.

I'm thinking Vogelhuber was filled in on what was expected of Johnson, and was told to do what he felt was necessary for his development. In my opinion, it was part of the reason he was sent down was to learn to be smarter with the puck. That situation was critical at that point of the game, a time he needed to be smart with the puck, which to me, makes his decision to sit him warranted. I still believe they called him back to quick, but they felt otherwise.

As far as Jenner goes, I don't know if they were playing him minutes to try to win, or to keep other guys at the minutes they were at for their development. I doubt they were really trying to win because I think they knew they weren't going anywhere anyway. I do think they had/have a plan in place to bring guys along at the pace they want to, and maybe throw them a few minutes more here and there if they were playing well enough, but Boone was simply eating minutes to keep the younger guys at the minutes they wanted them to get. Actually, Jenner's average time on ice this year was the least amount of his last 3 seasons, ( although it was only by a few seconds).

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I'm thinking Vogelhuber was filled in on what was expected of Johnson, and was told to do what he felt was necessary for his development. In my opinion, it was part of the reason he was sent down was to learn to be smarter with the puck. That situation was critical at that point of the game, a time he needed to be smart with the puck, which to me, makes his decision to sit him warranted. I still believe they called him back to quick, but they felt otherwise.

As far as Jenner goes, I don't know if they were playing him minutes to try to win, or to keep other guys at the minutes they were at for their development. I doubt they were really trying to win because I think they knew they weren't going anywhere anyway. I do think they had/have a plan in place to bring guys along at the pace they want to, and maybe throw them a few minutes more here and there if they were playing well enough, but Boone was simply eating minutes to keep the younger guys at the minutes they wanted them to get. Actually, Jenner's average time on ice this year was the least amount of his last 3 seasons, ( although it was only by a few seconds).

If they were being given sheltered minutes for their development, then there could be an arguement for/against the matchups they were given. Sometimes you can learn more about where you want to be by being on the ice defending a superstar like Matthews or McDavid than you can watching them from the bench.

 

[Monstershockey]

If they were being given sheltered minutes for their development, then there could be an arguement for/against the matchups they were given. Sometimes you can learn more about where you want to be by being on the ice defending a superstar like Matthews or McDavid than you can watching them from the bench.

I agree. I have no problem learning on the fly like that. As a coach or GM, and also the player, you can find out quick what kind of player you have/are. Does he fold up and lose confidence if he goes up against the top players, or does he come back stronger and work harder to achieve a higher level of play.

I don't know if that is something we as fans can pick up on as fast as coaches that have access to better video than we do, and can spend more time analyzing. Maybe they are seeing things that are leading to the current levels of ice time guys are receiving and just don't feel they are quite ready for more.

I kind of think Vincent may be gone, but I wouldn't mind seeing a second year from him, and maybe see what kind of effect his coaching last year will have on what happens this year.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I agree. I have no problem learning on the fly like that. As a coach or GM, and also the player, you can find out quick what kind of player you have/are. Does he fold up and lose confidence if he goes up against the top players, or does he come back stronger and work harder to achieve a higher level of play.

I don't know if that is something we as fans can pick up on as fast as coaches that have access to better video than we do, and can spend more time analyzing. Maybe they are seeing things that are leading to the current levels of ice time guys are receiving and just don't feel they are quite ready for more.

I kind of think Vincent may be gone, but I wouldn't mind seeing a second year from him, and maybe see what kind of effect his coaching last year will have on what happens this year.

His biggest negative was that he wasn't really that much difference than Larsen but he also didn't come in under ideal circumstances.

Unless whoever the new GM is has a very specific person in mind I think he'll be back but probably with a short leash. He needs to definitely show improvement and changes. As a Bengals fan, Zac Taylor has been maddening as a head coach but he at least appears to be learning and getting better at some things. As a Reds fan, I've been over David Bell as a manager since the first year. A stroke of luck last season bought him a long time than he should have but now the team can't hit their way out of a paper bag and that whole coaching staff needs shown the door.

 

[majormajor]

Not sure. maybe it was a directive from above.

As I recall, it was his first or 2nd game after being demoted so I'm not sure if he'd been there long enough to develop a trend of repeated mistakes at the AHL level. He very well could have been instructed on what to do and carry over from the NHL level.

Vincent took over a pond hockey team. Let's not forget how undisciplined this team was to start with. We have guys needlessly dipsy doodling around and turning pucks over in every part of the ice. Vincent benching guys to establish higher standards is something I like about him. I hope we take that to another level.

My biggest beef with PV and the organization as a whole this season was prioritizing winning over development for far too long once the season was lost early on. While we didn't have the NHL depth to allow people to play in Cleveland, there were many times players needed to play through their mistakes instead of running Boone Jenner into the ground with too many minutes for example.

I still firmly believe these kids need to play though it. Unless the player has a bad attitude about it, the failure to get the desire results repeatedly is more of a reflection on the quality of the instruction given.

Vincent laid out his philosophy on development before the season. I remember him saying that from his experience one of the main things that spoils development is too much responsibility too soon.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Vincent took over a pond hockey team. Let's not forget how undisciplined this team was to start with. We have guys needlessly dipsy doodling around and turning pucks over in every part of the ice. Vincent benching guys to establish higher standards is something I like about him. I hope we take that to another level.



Vincent laid out his philosophy on development before the season. I remember him saying that from his experience one of the main things that spoils development is too much responsibility too soon.

Maybe. I can understand that point but sometimes it comes across as an overprotective parent that is holding their kid back from being a success too. It's a fine line that needs to be learned.

To be fair, PV is coming in as the stepdad after the previous Dad tried to be the cool dad who let his kids do whatever they wanted.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Hard to say if Vincent is retained or not .. like McCarthy , he was a last minute fill in when the initial hire blew up in the front offices face . Would any other team had hired him last year ? I doubt it .. he was a safe fallback who understood the system Babcock had installed all summer .

 

[squashmaple]

His biggest negative was that he wasn't really that much difference than Larsen but he also didn't come in under ideal circumstances.

Unless whoever the new GM is has a very specific person in mind I think he'll be back but probably with a short leash. He needs to definitely show improvement and changes. As a Bengals fan, Zac Taylor has been maddening as a head coach but he at least appears to be learning and getting better at some things. As a Reds fan, I've been over David Bell as a manager since the first year. A stroke of luck last season bought him a long time than he should have but now the team can't hit their way out of a paper bag and that whole coaching staff needs shown the door.

As a Guards fan, I'd love if they could find a Stephen Vogt.