What would an all-time best on best tournament look like?

[MaxV]

Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov
Makarov-Larionov-Krutov
Ovechkin-Fedorov-Firsov
Kucherov-Datsyuk-Malkin

- Only 12 spots, many players have strong cases like Bure, Bobrov, Kovalchuk, Maltsev, Yakushev, Panarin, etc.
- Larionov is an interesting case. You could make a case for others to make instead of him (especially considering that I have 5 natural centers) but there is also a case of him being underrated. I honestly believe that his role on the Green Unit actually held him back a little. I’m of opinion that Soviet system had their centers be more defensive-minded, hence why Makarov and Krutov had more accolades. Plus there was also Fetisov, Larionov would stay back to let Slava attack (something that also makes Kasatonov underrated imo).

Fetisov-Kasatonov
Vasiliev-Zubov
Sologubov-Gonchar
Konstantinov-Markov

-imo, both Gonchar and Zubov are a bit underrated. Their reputations of offense-only carried throughout their careers despite the fact that they became significantly better players in their own zones later. Their resumes are very impressive both in regular season and playoffs. Zubov’s reputation has improved a bit, but not Gonchar. Just listen to what Crosby and Malkin have said about Gonchar, he was absolutely a huge part of those Pens teams’ success (including in his own zone).
-Sologubov is an interesting case. I understand, that was the dawn of European hockey, but pretty much everyone that has seen him played has came away raving about his all-around excellence including North American people. I also feel that there is a bias against Euro players that came before the 1972 SS, as if that was the first generation that produced top tier players. I don’t know if I agree.
-Less names to choose from, but there were still players that have a case. Lutchenko, Ragulin, Davydov, etc also have good cases.

Tretiak
Vasilevsky
Bobrovsky

-Bob vs Vasy is an interesting duel. We can compare hardware or playoff performances or consistency. Vasy’s rings give him an edge imo. Next two are probably Nabokov and Khabibullin, just not enough to enter top 3. Varlamov and Bryzgalov both had Vezina-worthy peaks, but it didn’t last long. Shestyorkin has some work to do. Kovalenko is probably the next best out of pre-90s players, but also not enough for me.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Sweden;

Peter Forsberg - Mats Sundin - Henrik Zetterberg
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Daniel Alfredsson
Mats Näslund - Kent Nilsson - Håkan Loob
Markus Näslund - Nicklas Bäckström - Elias Pettersson

Nicklas Lidström - Börje Salming
Victor Hedman - Erik Karlsson
Kenny Jönsson - Mattias Öhlund

Henrik Lundqvist
Pelle Lindbergh
Tommy Salo

 

[Primary Assist]

Sweden;

Peter Forsberg - Mats Sundin - Henrik Zetterberg
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Daniel Alfredsson
Mats Näslund - Kent Nilsson - Håkan Loob
Markus Näslund - Nicklas Bäckström - Elias Pettersson

Nicklas Lidström - Börje Salming
Victor Hedman - Erik Karlsson
Kenny Jönsson - Mattias Öhlund

Henrik Lundqvist
Pelle Lindbergh
Tommy Salo

I want to nitpick this and put W. Nylander on the roster but I just don't know who he would displace. Maybe he could slot in on the third line, but that's a big hill to climb.

Would love to see the Sedins and Alfie over the course of a tourney. That's the kind of second line that would dominate top pairings and let Sundin and Co. wreak havoc on second/third pairing mismatches

 

[Eye of Ra]

I want to nitpick this and put W. Nylander on the roster but I just don't know who he would displace. Maybe he could slot in on the third line, but that's a big hill to climb.

Would love to see the Sedins and Alfie over the course of a tourney. That's the kind of second line that would dominate top pairings and let Sundin and Co. wreak havoc on second/third pairing mismatches

Maybe he can take Petterssons spot

 

[Overrated]

- Larionov is an interesting case. You could make a case for others to make instead of him (especially considering that I have 5 natural centers) but there is also a case of him being underrated. I honestly believe that his role on the Green Unit actually held him back a little. I’m of opinion that Soviet system had their centers be more defensive-minded, hence why Makarov and Krutov had more accolades. Plus there was also Fetisov, Larionov would stay back to let Slava attack (something that also makes Kasatonov underrated imo).

Out of the WCs with +/- recorded Larionov had the worst.

Yes the sample is small but Larionov never stood out defensively imo even when compared to Krutov and Makarov.

 

[JackSlater]

Sweden;

Peter Forsberg - Mats Sundin - Henrik Zetterberg
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Daniel Alfredsson
Mats Näslund - Kent Nilsson - Håkan Loob
Markus Näslund - Nicklas Bäckström - Elias Pettersson

Nicklas Lidström - Börje Salming
Victor Hedman - Erik Karlsson
Kenny Jönsson - Mattias Öhlund

Henrik Lundqvist
Pelle Lindbergh
Tommy Salo

What is the extent of Forsberg's wing experience? It seems so much more natural that Sundin move to the wing, both stylistically and that he played there in the NHL.

 

[MadArcand]

Liba, Lala and Anton Stastny don't belong there.

None of them are viewed particularly highly in Czechia.

Years that European players would have won NHL accolades

The idea here is identifying seasons in which European players who weren't in the NHL would have won awards or all-star nods had they been in the NHL. I don't feel all that well versed on individual seasons for the European guys, so I don't have a lot of suggestions, but I'll make a couple. I...

forums.hfboards.com

Even on the full list you can only find Lala sharing 33-36th place and that is a list without any Slovak players: Dominik Hašek je nejlepším hráčem všech dob - iDNES.cz

I don't think there was a list made like that in Slovakia. The best I could find on the Slovak net was this Slovak list made by a hockey blogger and he wouldn't pick Liba nor Anton even for a team without any Czechs.

Najlepší hokejoví reprezentanti Slovenska – historický „Dream team“ - Martin Zachar - (blog.sme.sk)

TOP 23 slovenských hokejistov, alebo aká by bola hypotetická, historicky najlepšia zostava slovenskej hokejovej reprezentácie?

blog.sme.sk

The 1980s players are not very highly rated within Czechia and Slovakia. Give me Pasternak and Demitra instead. Promote Palffy into the main squad. Vladimir Ruzicka and Bondra could be there on the bench. I am aware this team would have way too many centers but it's better to turn a center into a winger than to have a vastly inferior player there.

edit: I would try to fit Hamrlik into the team also. Probably Kaberle too.

Did you just literally link the blog of my university classmate/friend's kid brother as some sort of "evidence"? Not only is he anything but some expert hockey historian, he even states right in the beginning that this is only based on players playing in the independent Slovak NT...

80s players are certainly higher regarded than the Cigers and Tatars of the world...

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

What is the extent of Forsberg's wing experience? It seems so much more natural that Sundin move to the wing, both stylistically and that he played there in the NHL.

It’s plausible that it starts and ends with the 2006 Olympics, admittedly(*), I think they usually centered their own lines 5 on 5. If Sakic and Forsberg were paired together however — 1998-99 I think is one season where they shared the ice more than usual — Sakic played center. Sundin the tall, lanky winger I feel was a different type of player than the tank center he became. Lastly, based on how Swedish lines tend to be configured, to me it just feels like it makes sense to move Forsberg to the wing on a line with Sundin. Might be a big ice thing, but I imagine Forsberg as a very wealthy man’s Linus Omark on a Swedish team, who can work set defenses up from along the boards, hit and run against the net but more often make plays for the superior goal scorers. Winning faceoffs and controlling the play are favorable abilities for a Swedish team and Sundin was clearly superior to Forsberg in the faceoff circle.

*Edit: That at least two Swedish posters have found it natural to have Sundin centering Forsberg’s line. The 2006 “golden goal” (Forsberg to Sundin to Lidstrom) came off a Sundin faceoff win.

 

[Overrated]

Did you just literally link the blog of my university classmate/friend's kid brother as some sort of "evidence"? Not only is he anything but some expert hockey historian, he even states right in the beginning that this is only based on players playing in the independent Slovak NT...

80s players are certainly higher regarded than the Cigers and Tatars of the world...

Nobody considers Lala or Liba to be among the greatest Czech/Slovak players of all time. Especially when the guy omitted Pasternak, Demitra, Bondra and even their contemporary Ruzicka.

Maybe I should not have linked a blog of a hockey fan but I wanted an immediate opinion piece from someone from the region. All of the main Slovak stars of the past 30 years like Gaborik, Hossa, Demitra, Bondra and Pálffy are rated above Liba that is for sure.

 

[MadArcand]

Nobody considers Lala or Liba to be among the greatest Czechoslovak players of all time. Especially when the guy omitted Pasternak, Demitra, Bondra and even their contemporary Ruzicka.

Maybe I should not have linked a blog of a hockey fan but I wanted an immediate opinion piece from someone from the region. All of the main Slovak stars of the past 30 years like Gaborik, Hossa, Demitra, Bondra and Pálffy are rated above Liba that is for sure.

As "someone from the region", nah. Hossa, Bondra, Palffy - yes. Demitra - had he not died, he wouldn't be as highly regarded as he is, he had reputation as master choker. Gaborik - hell no.

 

[JackSlater]

It’s plausible that it starts and ends with the 2006 Olympics, admittedly(*), I think they usually centered their own lines 5 on 5. If Sakic and Forsberg were paired together however — 1998-99 I think is one season where they shared the ice more than usual — Sakic played center. Sundin the tall, lanky winger I feel was a different type of player than the tank center he became. Lastly, based on how Swedish lines tend to be configured, to me it just feels like it makes sense to move Forsberg to the wing on a line with Sundin. Might be a big ice thing, but I imagine Forsberg as a very wealthy man’s Linus Omark on a Swedish team, who can work set defenses up from along the boards, hit and run against the net but more often make plays for the superior goal scorers. Winning faceoffs and controlling the play are favorable abilities for a Swedish team and Sundin was clearly superior to Forsberg in the faceoff circle.

*Edit: That at least two Swedish posters have found it natural to have Sundin centering Forsberg’s line. The 2006 “golden goal” (Forsberg to Sundin to Lidstrom) came off a Sundin faceoff win.

Yes, definitely a difference of philosophy. Good call on Colorado 1999 by the way. I'm very confident that in Canada Forsberg, better defensively and the better passer/playmaker, would be the centre while Sundin, better goal scorer, would be moved to the wing on a national team. Maybe Bob Hartley disagrees. Sundin could take the faceoffs if necessary but Forsberg would play centre and get more of the puck. You may be completely right that this is the better setup for how Sweden would play. I certainly see some Canadian teams and cannot imagine a line working even though it is loaded with talent.

 

[Overrated]

As "someone from the region", nah. Hossa, Bondra, Palffy - yes. Demitra - had he not died, he wouldn't be as highly regarded as he is, he had reputation as master choker. Gaborik - hell no.

I am also from the region so...

Guys like Gaborik and Demitra have youtube compilations and videos about them made by Slovaks clocking in hundreds of thousands of views.


I have heard praise about these guys my whole life. I have only found out about Liba after researching 1980s hockey. To find anything about him takes some effort. Few interviews with no views and virtually no footage. I only saw him watching some of the 1980s WCs. He led the watered down 1980s CSSR league in points just once. He did have some defensive qualities playing the left wing lock that is true. In the NHL the Minnesota coach wanted to send him to the minors. He played a few games in NY before being traded to LA. It's true that the LA coach liked him and wanted him to stay and that Liba himself admitted he regrets leaving. He nevertheless scored just 7 goals in 37 games during some of the highest scoring years in hockey history.

Gaborik on the other hand had 7 30+ goal seasons in the NHL playing in essentially two DPEs.
Between 05/06 and 11/12 he was 4th in goals per game after Ovechkin, Stamkos and Kovalchuk ahead of Crosby and Malkin. Demitra made the top10 in points three times during his own peak.

I have no idea why would you bump a post trying to argue a guy whose coach wanted to send him to the minors, who never even dominated domestically nor internationally who when actually playing in the NHL managed to score 25 points in 37 matches in a very high scoring era - and yes he was getting powerplay time where he played with Gretzky, a guy who is almost forgotten in his own country but you claim he was somehow better than players who actually dominated the NHL.

It's a pretty odd hill to choose to die on not gonna lie.

 

[DN28]

I'll try the all-time best Team Czechia. Taking into account chemistry and style between players I'd pick something like this:

Straka - Nový - Jágr
Eliáš - Hlinka - Hejduk
Holík - Nedomanský - Martinec
Palát - Krejčí - Pastrňák

Pospíšil - Machač
Hamrlík - Suchý
Kaberle - Bubla

Hašek
Holeček
Vokoun

Almost any all-time Czech team, picked here or elsewhere, puts Eliáš with Jágr on the first line but I don't recall a single game they actually played together on a World Championship, World Cup or Olympics... Straka played with Jágr throughout two decades and Nový would be a center willing to let Jágr control the puck and create chances.. which would be finished by Nový.

Was not sure if to prefer Hejduk or Voráček. The team would probably benefit more from goalscoring RW than Voráček heavily tilted to playmaking.

We need a better 4th LW. I was deciding between Palát and Prospal.. Is there any better Czech LW available?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Canada would still have the majority of the NHL stars in history. So they would be the heavy favourites. Here is a roster just for the heck of it.

Hull-Gretzky-Howe
Mahovlich-Lemieux-Richard
Lindsay-Beliveau-Lafleur
Messier-Crosby-Bossy
Esposito

Orr-Bourque
Shore-Coffey
Potvin-Harvey
Robinson

Roy
Brodeur
Plante/Sawchuk

Yeah, that teams winning. What line do you even check? You can mix it up a bit and see who complements each other the best, for example as much as we'd love to see Gretzky and Howe it could also make sense for Gretzky to have a guy like Bossy as his trigger man (a la Kurri).

Also, imagine not finding room for Red Kelly. Or Glenn Hall. Or Stan Mikita or Steve Yzerman or Joe Sakic.

Just like for the Summit Series.

 

[Overrated]

I'll try the all-time best Team Czechia. Taking into account chemistry and style between players I'd pick something like this:

Straka - Nový - Jágr
Eliáš - Hlinka - Hejduk
Holík - Nedomanský - Martinec
Palát - Krejčí - Pastrňák

Pospíšil - Machač
Hamrlík - Suchý
Kaberle - Bubla

Hašek
Holeček
Vokoun

Almost any all-time Czech team, picked here or elsewhere, puts Eliáš with Jágr on the first line but I don't recall a single game they actually played together on a World Championship, World Cup or Olympics... Straka played with Jágr throughout two decades and Nový would be a center willing to let Jágr control the puck and create chances.. which would be finished by Nový.

Was not sure if to prefer Hejduk or Voráček. The team would probably benefit more from goalscoring RW than Voráček heavily tilted to playmaking.

We need a better 4th LW. I was deciding between Palát and Prospal.. Is there any better Czech LW available?

Rucinsky was a decent LW. I would probably use someone like Reichel even though he wasn't playing LW.

 

[Overrated]

Just like for the Summit Series.

Canada would have the advantage of never having a weak generation of players. Much deeper pool of players to choose from. That is the difference.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Canada would have the advantage of never having a weak generation of players. Much deeper pool of players to choose from. That is the difference.

Deeper pool doesn't matter. Only so many slots to fill. It's basically top 20 versus top 20.

 

[Overrated]

Deeper pool doesn't matter. Only so many slots to fill. It's basically top 20 versus top 20.

It does. Only Canada and Russia can fill the team with big stars only.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It does. Only Canada and Russia can fill the team with big stars only.

Typically the higher up a ladder you go, the smaller the gaps get. A team of 1st line, all NHL all stars can "hang" and get lucky with variance even against All Time Greats more so then a team of Minor League players can do so against a team loaded up with NHL 1st line all stars. Unless we are kicking it out as a first to 100 wins or something to really reduce variance.

 

[Namba 17]

Almost any all-time Czech team, picked here or elsewhere, puts Eliáš with Jágr on the first line but I don't recall a single game they actually played together on a World Championship, World Cup or Olympics...

Interesting. I checked it and you're right - they always played in different lines. At least on OG and CC.
Any ideas why?
On paper they look like a good fit.
Was it to spread offence or they did not have chemistry? Were they ever tryed together?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Can't speak to national team play exactly, but in the NHL, Jagr - when he earned the right to call the shots - generally preferred to play with RHS centers (Jan Hrdina, Adam Oates, Claude Giroux, etc.)...

 

[JackSlater]

Sweden

Markus Naslund Forsberg Sandstrom
Nilsson Sundin Alfredsson
Landeskog Zetterberg Loob
Sedin Sedin Lindholm
Backstrom, F. Forsberg

Lidstrom Hedman
Lindholm Karlsson
Ohlund Salming
Kronwall, Jonsson

Lundqvist
Markstrom
Salo

I struggled to maximize Sweden's best talents here. Also was surprised with overall team skating/speed when looking at the very best players. Still a good team. I don't love Naslund but Forsberg should be with a goal scorer and we know he could work with Naslund. Naslund's short prime also isn't a factor here. Sandstrom is there to work the boards and complement the other two, and I just hope that his injury issues don't matter. Nilsson's offensive potential is too much to pass up, and Sundin and Alfredsson make up for his deficiencies and make for a well rounded line. I like Zetterberg and Landeskog as a pain in the ass and matchup pair, plus Loob's game fits with that role and he can be the main playmaker on the line. I almost went with Hedberg as the Sedins' RW but I wanted Lindholm as their defensive conscience and figure he can be the third piece as a winger.

Lidstrom worked best with another defenceman who can also move the puck and with Hedman as a RHD I like just throwing them both out there together. Since Lidstrom is the only player on the team who makes every other national team if available, bringing out his best is important. I really like Lindholm's defensive game and Karlsson was always getting a partner who will allow him to roam. If we're going just on peak I could see Karlsson being a difference maker even at this level. Ohlund and Kronwall are pretty interchangeable to me and I really like Salming's well rounded game. Lundqvist and Markstrom were both steady goaltenders who peaked, in my opinion, as best in the world for a time, so Sweden is good enough in this position.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Elias Lindholm seems off to me on an all-time Swedish team. If you want some one solid both ways along the Sedins, perhaps Thomas Steen would be a fit? Brings some grit to team as well. Don't know if he could play wing, though. He also leaned heavily towards playmaking which isn't optimal but so do almost all Swedes...

 

[JackSlater]

Elias Lindholm seems off to me on an all-time Swedish team. If you want some one solid both ways along the Sedins, perhaps Thomas Steen would be a fit? Brings some grit to team as well. Don't know if he could play wing, though. He also leaned heavily towards playmaking which isn't optimal but so do almost all Swedes...

I can't disagree. He was a last minute change. I didn't want to spend too much time thinking about a fourth line that is realistically playing under ten minutes a game. I wanted someone to add some extra defensive cover and who could contribute offensively as the third wheel. This is pretty much what Lindholm did with Gaudreau and Tkchuk, and I figure that he's at least right handed and could maybe shift to RW.

The generalist nature of so many of the best Swedish players, where they are well rounded but perhaps don't have a specific clear strength to bring to a line, made it a challenge. Apologies to Holmstrom, one of the last great specialists.

 

[DN28]

Interesting. I checked it and you're right - they always played in different lines. At least on OG and CC.
Any ideas why?
On paper they look like a good fit.
Was it to spread offence or they did not have chemistry? Were they ever tryed together?

Probably really just to spread offense accross all lines..