Speculation: 2023-2024 General Lightning Discussion - Part 3

[Crunchrulz]

Not asking for Crunch players/prospects to step in and be all-stars, but I believe a few can provide some depth in the.bottom 6. Whether it's a couple of them or a combo of them and cheaper ufa's, they can't be any worse(and for a cheaper hit cap wise), then dead weight Sheary and Jeannot.

I'm not as worried about the offense as I am the defense, which has seen a ga/g steadily increase over the past three seasons. Of course Vasy has had his issues the past couple of seasons, and perhaps he'll finally be back to form to start next season, but it won't matter if the defense continues leaking as badly as they are(for one reason or another).

While it may mean spending less on a top/middle 6 F, I hope the priority this summer(after Stamkos's situation is resolved) is adding a quality top.4.defensively sound RD. The team badly needs one and luckily, this summer should see a solid number of them hitting ufa. This is also the only way I would consider moving Cirelli, if the assets returned directly resulted in a top 4 RD with term(and in such a way that cap space would be gained such that Tampa could then also replace Cirelli to some degree as well).

Again, VERY excellent points!
In a nutshell, this offseason can be broken down into two scenarios;

1) Stamkos stays
2) Stamkos goes

Until that is resolved, we can speculate all we want. As we all know, the Cap Space involved in either solution will have a far bigger impact than trading and/or releasing any players other than one of the Core Six.

 

[These Are The Days]

If you can be absolute dog piss with Lecavalier and St. Louis, you can still rebuild/reload with Stamkos, Hedman, Vasy and Kucherov. It sounds to me the goal is to win. But we're also in like year 11 of the window and if we're gonna just be bad anyway then don't be bashful about picking from the draft litter. I'm not saying blow it up and tank for McKenna. But if we suck anyway there's no sense in parting with 8 more assets just so we can lose in the 2nd round.

 

[Sky04]

Used up a shit ton of assets the last 2 years just to get bounced in R1 twice, already well on the Pittsburgh path.

 

[Maelmoor]

Used up a shit ton of assets the last 2 years just to get bounced in R1 twice, already well on the Pittsburgh path.

Sure, but not trying to go for it, with the best core we ever had would've been even worse.

Several of JBB moves definitely contributed to our cups and was the push we needed. Had some of those trades not paid off, he would've been blasted for those.

No doubt he made some bad trades, but I rather have a GM going for it than one who passively sits idle, collecting some picks. There's never been a GM who just made good moves and there will never be one.

Bad trades/signings should be critized, just as good ones should be praised, but I favour the general approach.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Sure, but not trying to go for it, with the best core we ever had would've been even worse.

Several of JBB moves definitely contributed to our cups and was the push we needed. Had some of those trades not paid off, he would've been blasted for those.

No doubt he made some bad trades, but I rather have a GM going for it than one who passively sits idle, collecting some picks. There's never been a GM who just made good moves and there will never be one.

Bad trades/signings should be critized, just as good ones should be praised, but I favour the general approach.

The approach to "going for it" last year was flawed. 2022-23 team was already trending away from being a true contender, and then BriseBois loses his mind and trades everything for a guy who had one good year and was already regressing to the mean. Should have been smarter about what they were buying.

 

[Rschmitz]

The Cernak/Cirelli/Sergachev contracts are the main issue I have with what JBB has done. Difficult to rebuild when they're locked into NMC's. Bad deals happen, even monstrously bad deals like Jeannot, but tactically he can't lean into a rebuild if he's forced to ice certain players.

 

[The Gongshow]

The approach to "going for it" last year was flawed. 2022-23 team was already trending away from being a true contender, and then BriseBois loses his mind and trades everything for a guy who had one good year and was already regressing to the mean. Should have been smarter about what they were buying.

People on this sub complain about the constant Jeannot posts, but need to realize this bad trade severely affected the window. Those assets could have been traded for other players or led to other domino effects. Hindsight and all, sure, but this trade is continuing to haunt them.

Perhaps those picks get us Hanafin. Or maybe get us ROR, can't think about the what ifs too much, but this one stings.

Someone mentioned they like how JBB is atleast making moves and being somewhat aggressive while wr have our core and I can agree with that. I just think better asset management could be done, in terms of what we give away or what we're after/recieve.

Tough spot to be in forsure as we're losing top 6 vets and replacing them with 4th liners thanks to some overpaid contracts and the cap not doing any favors

 

[RussianGuyovich]

The Cernak/Cirelli/Sergachev contracts are the main issue I have with what JBB has done. Difficult to rebuild when they're locked into NMC's. Bad deals happen, even monstrously bad deals like Jeannot, but tactically he can't lean into a rebuild if he's forced to ice certain players.

i mean, at least those dudes got rewarded for winning the cup(s). in that context the numbers make sense, also with the cap going up. other bad contracts are just keeping out crunch players that could put up similar numbers for less money.

 

[Point21]

The fact there is a 2 1/2 year difference between Coop and Sullivan and a 9 year difference between Coop and a guy that was playing for Coop when he first started...

 

[Outl4w]

Eh, I think it's more like this is who he is and that rookie season was a fluke. He was already trending downward last season with the Preds.

Exactly

 

[Outl4w]

i mean, at least those dudes got rewarded for winning the cup(s). in that context the numbers make sense, also with the cap going up. other bad contracts are just keeping out crunch players that could put up similar numbers for less money.

I can respect that rewarding championships not 4th line plugs like jeannot that only have been apart of losing playoff series

 

[OffBy1]

i mean, at least those dudes got rewarded for winning the cup(s). in that context the numbers make sense, also with the cap going up. other bad contracts are just keeping out crunch players that could put up similar numbers for less money.

I don't think the concept of "reward" should be in contract negotiations, even after winning it all. The contract terms should just be based on what they are worth, based on their comparables in the league. Being on a team that is well-managed to remain a contender for as long as possible is also a reward.

 

[RussianGuyovich]

I don't think the concept of "reward" should be in contract negotiations, even after winning it all. The contract terms should just be based on what they are worth, based on their comparables in the league. Being on a team that is well-managed to remain a contender for as long as possible is also a reward.

well, all three agreed to take "bridge deals" as RFAs so it's a little more complex than the "reward" that you are referencing.

 

[Point21]

 

[Rschmitz]

i mean, at least those dudes got rewarded for winning the cup(s). in that context the numbers make sense, also with the cap going up. other bad contracts are just keeping out crunch players that could put up similar numbers for less money.

The no movement clauses are the only problem I have, can't do a hard core rebuild with so many long term deals that have NMC's.

 

[Point21]

We should do a Cirelli for Rossi+ swap
Wild willing to listen on Gustavsson, Rossi — The Fourth Period

 

[Crunchrulz]

If you can be absolute dog piss with Lecavalier and St. Louis, you can still rebuild/reload with Stamkos, Hedman, Vasy and Kucherov. It sounds to me the goal is to win. But we're also in like year 11 of the window and if we're gonna just be bad anyway then don't be bashful about picking from the draft litter. I'm not saying blow it up and tank for McKenna. But if we suck anyway there's no sense in parting with 8 more assets just s

People on this sub complain about the constant Jeannot posts, but need to realize this bad trade severely affected the window. Those assets could have been traded for other players or led to other domino effects. Hindsight and all, sure, but this trade is continuing to haunt them.

Perhaps those picks get us Hanafin. Or maybe get us ROR, can't think about the what ifs too much, but this one stings.

Someone mentioned they like how JBB is atleast making moves and being somewhat aggressive while wr have our core and I can agree with that. I just think better asset management could be done, in terms of what we give away or what we're after/recieve.

Tough spot to be in forsure as we're losing top 6 vets and replacing them with 4th liners thanks to some overpaid contracts and the cap not doing any favors

At what point do we stop beating the dead mule on either side of the "Jeannot is terrible" conversation and accept the trade was made, did not work out, and move on working with what we have rather than complaining about what could have been?

 

[RussianGuyovich]

yeah, it's not really about the posts being inaccurate, it's about the sheer f***ing amount of the posts, ESPECIALLY when no one really disagrees. just shouting at the wind at this point.

 

[Sky04]

At what point do we stop beating the dead mule on either side of the "Jeannot is terrible" conversation and accept the trade was made, did not work out, and move on working with what we have rather than complaining about what could have been?

Bringing up the trade over and over is one thing, him being terrible on the ice is another. His play is fair game, not like he's immune to criticism because he came from a shitty trade out of his control.

3 points in the final 26 games, 4 in 30 if you count the playoffs, those are god awful numbers. If you want to talk about AHLer's replacing someone at 1/3rd the cost there's a starting point.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

Bringing up the trade over and over is one thing, him being terrible on the ice is another. His play is fair game, not like he's immune to criticism because he came from a shitty trade out of his control.

3 points in the final 26 games, 4 in 30 if you count the playoffs, those are god awful numbers. If you want to talk about AHLer's replacing someone at 1/3rd the cost there's a starting point.

Agreed on this, but I think he means constant complaining about opportunity cost and not being traded due to JBBs pride etc. It is beating a dead horse at this point.

 

[NJBolt]

On the Jeannot trade, it still isn't clear what the Lightning gave up. All of the value of that trade will be determined this year and next (with the 2nd and 1st rounder).

TB shipped out-

1) Cal Foote (cut by Nashville, signed by NJ on a 2-way contract, currently on leave of absence)
2) 2023 3rd Rounder - D Dylan MacKinnon
3) 2023 4th Rounder - (reacquired by Lightning, picked RW Jason Shaugabay; now Chi 2024 4th Rounder)
4) 2023 5th Rounder - LW Kevin Bicker
5) 2024 2nd Rounder
6) 2025 1st Rounder (top 10 protected).

 

[Crunchrulz]

Bringing up the trade over and over is one thing, him being terrible on the ice is another. His play is fair game, not like he's immune to criticism because he came from a shitty trade out of his control.

3 points in the final 26 games, 4 in 30 if you count the playoffs, those are god awful numbers. If you want to talk about AHLer's replacing someone at 1/3rd the cost there's a starting point.

Thank you for proving my point. Have a nice day.

 

[Rschmitz]

On the Jeannot trade, it still isn't clear what the Lightning gave up. All of the value of that trade will be determined this year and next (with the 2nd and 1st rounder).

TB shipped out-

1) Cal Foote (cut by Nashville, signed by NJ on a 2-way contract, currently on leave of absence)
2) 2023 3rd Rounder - D Dylan MacKinnon
3) 2023 4th Rounder - (reacquired by Lightning, picked RW Jason Shaugabay; now Chi 2024 4th Rounder)
4) 2023 5th Rounder - LW Kevin Bicker
5) 2024 2nd Rounder
6) 2025 1st Rounder (top 10 protected).

We can quantify draft picks, even if they are lottery tickets.

 

[Sky04]

Thank you for proving my point. Have a nice day.

Just stay in your bubble, it's fine.

We can quantify draft picks, even if they are lottery tickets.

It doesn't matter what they become either, all picks have value at the time of trade otherwise the other team wouldn't be taking them.

 

[Crunchrulz]

Just stay in your bubble, it's fine.



It doesn't matter what they become either, all picks have value at the time of trade otherwise the other team wouldn't be taking them.

My bubble is perfectly fine.
It gives me an unobstructed view of BOTH sides of a conversation or topic.
This in turn enables me to use my own judgement to make a decision one way or another rather than relying on what others want me to believe to influence that decision.
Have a nice evening.