2023 ATD Poll #3: Less Experienced GMs choose draft-slots

[BenchBrawl]

No one will care to choose their spots if they can't literally choose it for 2-4. A lottery is not choosing.

Who cares to get the 5th or 9th pick, especially among newcomers?

I wouldn't even care and it's my 13th year straight doing this (wow time flies, seems like yesterday Zamboni Mania and I tried to make that draft-breaking deal so I could pick Gretz and Mario).

 

[Sturminator]

No one will care to choose their spots if they can't literally choose it for 2-4. A lottery is not choosing.

Who cares to get the 5th or 9th pick, especially among newcomers?

I wouldn't even care and it's my 13th year straight doing this (wow time flies, seems like yesterday Zamboni Mania and I tried to make that draft-breaking deal so I could pick Gretz and Mario).

I agree. We should just say "choose your draft slot" and let the whole thing be open for newcomers, right up to the 1st overall pick. These picks don't imbalance the draft, and a sales pitch that is both simple and generous is most likely to work, imo.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No one will care to choose their spots if they can't literally choose it for 2-4. A lottery is not choosing.

Who cares to get the 5th or 9th pick, especially among newcomers?

I wouldn't even care and it's my 13th year straight doing this (wow time flies, seems like yesterday Zamboni Mania and I tried to make that draft-breaking deal so I could pick Gretz and Mario).

I cared when I had never picked between 5-9 before ever

but yes, if the goal is to attract newcomers, just let them have the pick of their choosing.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

posted about this in HOH. Will anyone new want to join? Maybe!

HOH 2022-23 Project: Top-60 Pre-Merger Players of All-Time Pre-Discussion thread

For whatever it's worth, @seventieslord identified Dutton as out in the first couple pages. I leaned pretty hard on the page 1-3 discussions to determine eligibility. I missed that somehow. I guess I'll need to make some adjustments.

forums.hfboards.com

the preview is for the wrong post, nice software haha

 

[BenchBrawl]

What's the final plan on this? Draft order should be done on Wednesday, approaching fast.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Here are the tiers, as best as I can see them:

Tier #1, multi-time Champions-
ResilientBeast/rmartin65
BenchBrawl/Sturminator
Brave Canadian/TheDevilMadeMe

Tier #2, One-time Champions, Former Finalists, and Former Final Four Appearance GMs
Hawkey Town 18
ImporterExporter
VanIslander
overpass

Tier #3, Multi-year participants with no Final Four Appearances
tinyzombies
Leaf Lander
Claude the Fraud
The Macho King
nabby12/ChiTownPhilly
tony d

Tier #4, two or fewer drafts, plus co-GMing a newcomer
Professor What
RustyRazor
Johnny Engine/spitsfan24

Status unknown: @BlueBleeder

Three points about @Johnny Engine -

1) He's agreed to take a rookie as co-GM this year, which should count for something.
2) A few years back, he played out someone else's busted position and saved everyone's draft, which (to me) is "paying forward" in a big way.
3) I looked back 10 years- and noted that he never picked in the top-3. I believe his routine middle-of-order draft-selections may have something to do with why he hasn't made a Final Four.

I think choice of slots should go to Tier #4 (Random-draw for pick-order, then pick.)

Then, repeat the process for Tier #3.

[I think there's a palpable gap between Tier #3 & Tier 2... but maybe I'm reading too much into this.]

Then, lottery the remaining picks.

The one thing that I feel QUITE strongly about is that Tier #4 should have the first three picks. I feel less strongly about everything else I've proposed.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Here are the tiers, as best as I can see them:

Tier #1, multi-time Champions-
ResilientBeast/rmartin65
BenchBrawl/Sturminator
Brave Canadian/TheDevilMadeMe

Tier #2, One-time Champions, Former Finalists, and Former Final Four Appearance GMs
Hawkey Town 18
ImporterExporter
VanIslander
overpass

Tier #3, Multi-year participants with no Final Four Appearances
tinyzombies
Leaf Lander
Claude the Fraud
The Macho King
nabby12/ChiTownPhilly
tony d

Tier #4, two or fewer drafts, plus co-GMing a newcomer
Professor What
RustyRazor
Johnny Engine/spitsfan24

Status unknown: @BlueBleeder

Three points about @Johnny Engine -

1) He's agreed to take a rookie as co-GM this year, which should count for something.
2) A few years back, he played out someone else's busted position and saved everyone's draft, which (to me) is "paying forward" in a big way.
3) I looked back 10 years- and noted that he never picked in the top-3. I believe his routine middle-of-order draft-selections may have something to do with why he hasn't made a Final Four.

I think choice of slots should go to Tier #4 (Random-draw for pick-order, then pick.)

Then, repeat the process for Tier #3.

[I think there's a palpable gap between Tier #3 & Tier 2... but maybe I'm reading too much into this.]

Then, lottery the remaining picks.

The one thing that I feel QUITE strongly about is that Tier #4 should have the first three picks. I feel less strongly about everything else I've proposed.

Well we said based on experience not success in the draft.....

People whose debut was before mine in 2014

• VanIslander
• BenchBrawl/Sturminator
• tony d
• Hawkey Town 18
• overpass (i think?)
• TDMM/Brave Canadian
• Johnny Engine (is partnering with a rookie)
• Leaf Lander
• Bluebleeder

People whose debut was the same year as mine

• Importer Exporter

People whose debut was after mine

• rmartin (by one year)
• nabby/CTP
• Macho King
• PW
• Tinyzombies
• Claude the Fraud
• RustyRazor (i think?)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I thought we had a general agreement that only 1st or 2nd year GMs would pick their spots...

I mean, it's not a huge deal for me, but seems pretty late in the game to change that

 

[ResilientBeast]

I thought we had a general agreement that only 1st or 2nd year GMs would pick their spots...

Also kind of what I thought

 

[Professor What]

FWIW, I'm not looking to pick my spot.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Well we said based on experience not success in the draft.....

Valid point.

@Professor What & @RustyRazor are less-experienced GMs, by any measure.

Still don't know that status of BlueBleeder. He (presumably) participated before many of us- but if he's only done it once or twice, then he'd be a less-experienced GM, as well. [Don't think that applies, as he's one of the two who voted "nay" on the proposition.]

Here follows a quotation of something I posted over ten days ago, in the "sign-up" thread:

"However, I'd like to (somehow) arrange for some distinction between multi-year (I.e.: >3 yrs) participants who've had a history of success, and multi-year participants who've never caught a whiff....Nice to reach out to newcomers- we all agree. It'd also be helpful to throw a bone to those who by now must feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football {with Lucy as the Holder} once again."

So (if you've been following along), it's not like I've sprung up this idea all-of-a-sudden.

That said, I'm for Razor, the Professor, and Johnny- (even if they all would never presume to ask for any consideration). Everything else doesn't matter enough to me for me to expend too many more keystrokes on the issue.

 

[BenchBrawl]

.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Can we get a simple rule and move on?

 

[Sturminator]

No interest in a multi-tiered system for determining draft picks. If the new guy is determined to be a discrete, individual homo sapien, he can choose his slot. Otherwise, not interested in a non-lottery system.

 

[VanIslander]

The poll was less experienced GMs choose spots.

So that Tier 4 is clearly it.

@RustyRazor state your draft position here.
@Johnny Engine @spitsfan24 state your draft position here
@Professor What (if you change your mind, post your draft position here.

**First come, first served.**

DEADLINE TO STATE DRAFT POSITION FOR THOSE LESS EXPERIENCED GMs is Thursday at noon Eastern (more than 24 hours from now).

Everyone else will be randomized thereafter (or sooner if the less experienced GMs pick sooner).

An outsider will randomize the order, as usual.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The poll was less experienced GMs choose spots.

So that Tier 4 is clearly it.

@RustyRazor state your draft position here.
@Johnny Engine @spitsfan24 state your draft position here
@Professor What (if you change your mind, post your draft position here.

**First come, first served.**

DEADLINE TO STATE DRAFT POSITION FOR THOSE LESS EXPERIENCED GMs is Thursday at noon Eastern (more than 24 hours from now).

Everyone else will be randomized thereafter (or sooner if the less experienced GMs pick sooner).

An outsider will randomize the order, as usual.

No Top 4 picks though.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

No Top 4 picks though.

They'd be foolish to want pick #4, anyway.

Now-here's the rub- if they select, does this exclude them from the lottery for 1-2-3? Would be something of a mixed blessing if it did. If I was in their position, I'd arrive with bells to take the draft slot that's tied with one or two others for being the one that yields the most champions. If I didn't get that one, might as well get thrown in-the-lottery.

@VanIslander : I like the way you're thinking, here. Sometimes, situation just calls for someone to take charge.

 

[BenchBrawl]

They'd be foolish to want pick #4, anyway.

Now-here's the rub- if they select, does this exclude them from the lottery for 1-2-3? Would be something of a mixed blessing if it did. If I was in their position, I'd arrive with bells to take the draft slot that's tied with one or two others for being the one that yields the most champions. If I didn't get that one, might as well get thrown in-the-lottery.

@VanIslander : I like the way you're thinking, here. Sometimes, situation just calls for someone to take charge.

No.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Some thoughts on this:

At the very least there should be a lottery for the #1 overall spot. Give us GMs who have never had a top 3/4 pick at least one shot at it.

Whether it's decided to allow the newer GMs to choose picks 2-4 or not, there should be a lottery conducted for the top spots BEFORE the new GMs choose their draft position, so they also have a shot at those top picks like everyone else.

My suggestion is this:

- Have a lottery for the top 4 picks (or for the #1 pick only if picks 2-4 are available for the new GMs) today.
- Do not announce the lottery winners today, but only inform the new GMs if they won a lottery spot or not
- Give the new GMs until tomorrow to submit their pick preferences.
- Conduct a lottery for the remaining spots

 

[Sturminator]

The poll was less experienced GMs choose spots.

So that Tier 4 is clearly it.

@RustyRazor state your draft position here.
@Johnny Engine @spitsfan24 state your draft position here
@Professor What (if you change your mind, post your draft position here.

**First come, first served.**

DEADLINE TO STATE DRAFT POSITION FOR THOSE LESS EXPERIENCED GMs is Thursday at noon Eastern (more than 24 hours from now).

Everyone else will be randomized thereafter (or sooner if the less experienced GMs pick sooner).

An outsider will randomize the order, as usual.

There is not actually an agreement on this. Besides, isn't this the 3rd draft for Professor and Rusty?

I was voting in favor of allowing 1st or 2nd year GMs to choose their draft slots, not the tier system.

 

[ResilientBeast]

There is not actually an agreement on this. Besides, isn't this the 3rd draft for Professor and Rusty?

Yup

 

[Hitru]

Guys, we need to decide if picks 2-4 are available or not.

If they are me and professor most likely would want one of those. If not then we probably just take what lottery gives us.

It feels like simplest is just run the lottery and that's it.

 

[ResilientBeast]

- Have a lottery for the top 4 picks (or for the #1 pick only if picks 2-4 are available for the new GMs) today.

I remain consistent that the top 4 should just be lottery only. If you don't want to pick up that high, I'm sure people will be lining up for pick swaps

 

[Sturminator]

Guys, we need to decide if picks 2-4 are available or not.

If they are me and professor most likely would want one of those. If not then we probably just take what lottery gives us.

It feels like simplest is just run the lottery and that's it.

I'm starting to think you are right.

Let's just have the lottery and get on with it.

 

[Sturminator]

So, two issues here:

1) What does the poll actually mean? There is no agreement on whether or not we are going with a rule allowing 1st/2nd year GMs to choose their slots, CTP's tier system, or something else.

2) What about picks 1-4?

Right now, the poll and its results are incoherent.