Is hockey dying in Quebec ?

[Pierre Larouche]

I don’t understand why this isn’t being brought up more often. Quebec no longer produces hockey talent.

The current best francophone player is Jonathan Marchessault who’s is a good player but he’s not a superstar by any means.

The second best French Canadian player these days is Kris Letang who is about to retire soon.

This is absolutely ridiculous, the drop in talent is worse than in Czechia and Slovakia.

What’s the reason behind this ? The sport popularity is dropping in Quebec? Is it the lack of success by the Canadiens ?

Are there any upcoming québécois young stars?

My guess is money. Hockey is really only affordable to the wealthy today. Most families cannot afford the expense.

 

[WarriorofTime]

My guess is money. Hockey is really only affordable to the wealthy today. Most families cannot afford the expense.

As of 1981, per capita GDP in Canada was 92 per cent of that of the U.S.; by 2022 it had fallen to just 73 per cent. Canada's richest province, Alberta, would rank 14th among U.S. states

 

[TJHKY]

Hockey is a rich kids sport.
This is true in Canada.

 

[TesseractPrice]

I remember writing something on a similar thread a few months ago, here goes

There are a lot of reasons IMO as it is a complex issue impacted by economical and social factors

Off the top of my head, here are a few:
1- The newcomers prefer soccer. While immigration is a federal jurisdiction, Quebec does have a hand in the criteria to select immigrants which include the language spoken. A much higher proportion of french speaking immigrants go to Quebec (duh) and, in a lesser measure, Spanish-speaking and Portuguese-speaking. People from France, the Maghreb, Belgium, Western and central Africa, Brasil and Latin America overwhelmingly already have a sport, it's soccer. Hockey won't dethrone it in their hearts

2- The greater Montreal doesn't care about hockey if it's not affiliated to the Habs in some shape or form. Despite a urban area of 4.5 millions people and it being the economic engine of the province, the greater Montreal only has ONE QJMHL team, the Armada. Let's get real, hockey is a rich suburbanite sport and the East and West of the Island, Laval and both shores are peak suburbia with a lot of wealthy ones sprinkled in. The fact there's only one QJMHL team is really telling

3- Mothers don't want their children to play hockey. In my experience, the leader of the household in Quebec (or at least in the greater Montreal), which includes the children activities, is the mother. To say male minor hockey has terrible press among women is an euphemism to say the least. There's the Hockey Canada scandal of course, but also the recent cases with the players from the Tigres and Voltigeurs. Then you add the risk of concussion and hockey is undesirable sport for parents at the moment

4- Hockey is hella expensive. Quebec is not as rich as Ontario or Alberta and it's even more accentuated outside the greater Montreal and the Quebec city region. Having a kid play AAA is just so expensive

5- Hockey Quebec and Hockey Canada are viewed as crooked and incompetent. I mean... The department of sport is full of bumbling buffoons too

6- Hockey parents are seen as trashy. Ask any hotel staff, they'll say hockey families and coaches are the worst and some hotels even ban them, It's way more minor than the other reasons above but still. Hockey really has an image problem

7- The culture of volunteering is at odds with the cash grabbiness some teams exhibit. It's not a hockey specific thing though. If you feel like your son's team is trying to make you pay for every single thing, you might not be willing to help them for free. A strong network of volunteers is the backbone of any sport

8- Neoliberal politicies are the norm in Quebec. A poorer country in term of GDP can have a more socialized approach to sports and successfully form new athletes that way. I mean Quebec is way richer (and more populated) than Slovakia for example, yet have continued to decline in forming new NHL talent while the latter is having a renaissance of sorts in that regard. Making grassroot sport more of a business might work for rich countries and provinces, it doesn't for Quebec. The inhabitants of most towns won't agree to fund a hockey program for children from less well off families through their taxes

9- Physical activity is a class marker and the sports one practice is also a class marker. Hockey is at the same time an expensive sport that is low-education coded. The people with the money to enroll their children in youth hockey leagues don't and the people who might want to don't have the money.

 

[Lacaar]

Lot's of great thoughts here.

One I've often thought is that the NHL has been going down a path of alienating Canadian hockey fans in the interest of American growth. It's not surprising from a business standpoint. There's just 10 times more Americans and that's where the money is.

There hasn't been a cup won in Canada in over 30 years. It's not just bad management and decisions. Free agency, no trade/movement clauses are a system that vastly favors American Franchises. Especially specific ones. It's under reported imo.

Canadians love hockey but not like American's love sports in general. If you take the hope away Canadians stop watching.

I think Calgary will be a great team to watch and see how things go. Those fans have had their hearts ripped out by UFA/NTC etc. For the most part forced into desperation signings that backfire and turn into anchors. This is the type of crap that gets under reported. What's Calgary's attendance going to be like in the next few years? how many little Calgarian kids will want to take up the game knowing their favorite team is really just a farm team for the American franchises?

It's not a massive in your face thing.. but it's been a slow simmer over the last 30+ years.

 

[joelef]

Lot's of great thoughts here.

One I've often thought is that the NHL has been going down a path of alienating Canadian hockey fans in the interest of American growth. It's not surprising from a business standpoint. There's just 10 times more Americans and that's where the money is.

There hasn't been a cup won in Canada in over 30 years. It's not just bad management and decisions. Free agency, no trade/movement clauses are a system that vastly favors American Franchises. Especially specific ones. It's under reported imo.

Canadians love hockey but not like American's love sports in general. If you take the hope away Canadians stop watching.

I think Calgary will be a great team to watch and see how things go. Those fans have had their hearts ripped out by UFA/NTC etc. For the most part forced into desperation signings that backfire and turn into anchors. This is the type of crap that gets under reported. What's Calgary's attendance going to be like in the next few years? how many little Calgarian kids will want to take up the game knowing their favorite team is really just a farm team for the American franchises?

It's not a massive in your face thing.. but it's been a slow simmer over the last 30+ years.

The biggest problem is the nhl and hockey in general is its ignorance of the demographic changes of Canada.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

I know one golf pro and one very successful businessman who’ve both complained about the cost for their kids to be in hockey especially one who’s son is a goaltender.

If successful people with plenty of disposable income are even mentioning the cost you can only imagine the effect the cost is having on people just struggling to maintain during this time.

Granted without asking they probably op for additional cost like personal trainers, summer development camps, additional ice time etc. That’s what it takes now though if you have basically any hope of chasing the dream to the highest level.

 

[13to40]

All the rule changes in minor league hockey is the #1 reason for the lack of good prospects coming out of Quebec.

They’ve modified the contact rules immensely. Kids pretty much are playing with a bubble wrap around them. Things have changed for the worst in a manner that’s supposed to protect the average player from getting hit even though contact is only allowed at a more elite level.

The price to enlist a kid in hockey is astronomically expensive as well as mentioned by every second poster in this thread, but I’m sure in other provinces the cost to play hockey is far greater than the cost to enlist your child in basketball or soccer or baseball.

I know there used to be a lot of municipal funded training sessions such as power skating, shooting clinics, goalie clinics and defensive clinics a few years back. I don’t think such training sessions are available anymore for free. I know in Quebec (Montreal in particular) there are numerous of high end hockey schools or training facilities available with amazing trainers, but again the costs of enrolling your child in such programs are far greater than the average working parent can afford.

TL;DR

Rule changes in Quebec minor hockey and price tag of enlisting your child have to be a large portion of the problem

 

[WarriorofTime]

The price to enlist a kid in hockey is astronomically expensive as well as mentioned by every second poster in this thread, but I’m sure in other provinces the cost to play hockey is far greater than the cost to enlist your child in basketball or soccer or baseball.

I know there used to be a lot of municipal funded training sessions such as power skating, shooting clinics, goalie clinics and defensive clinics a few years back. I don’t think such training sessions are available anymore for free. I know in Quebec (Montreal in particular) there are numerous of high end hockey schools or training facilities available with amazing trainers, but again the costs of enrolling your child in such programs are far greater than the average working parent can afford.

I believe Mario Lemieux played on church-sponsored minor hockey teams in his youth prior to Junior Hockey. If he was coming up today, would his family have been able to afford the costs of high-level hockey? Or would he and his brother have played a sport like Soccer instead, because hockey was just too expensive? And then Mario Lemieux is never Mario Lemieux, and what a shame that would be.. and we'd all be none the wiser to his existence.

 

[Reindl87]

Hockey is a rich kids sport.
This is true in Canada.

Canada is a rich country that has more rich kids than almsot all other nations. So Candada is fine in that regard.

 

[saintunspecified]

4- Hockey is hella expensive. Quebec is not as rich as Ontario or Alberta and it's even more accentuated outside the greater Montreal and the Quebec city region. Having a kid play AAA is just so expensive

I am not involved in youth hockey, and I live in NYC not Montreal (I do have family there & visit often). I believe there's another item: the lack of playing space per capita. Of course, this interacts with the economic issues you discuss, and it definitely interacts with player motivation - I'll explain.

I coach youth lacrosse in NYC. Lacrosse is expensive relative to other sports, but not nearly on a level with hockey. But not only is it difficult to find field space for practices and games, but players do not have easy access to places to practice on their own - no backyard rebounders, or nets. When we play other city teams, we go up against a combo of pivate school kids who have field advantages, other teams just like ours, and teams who look to intimidate. When we play suburban teams we get crushed (not physically, because of better skill + better numbers). So if we win 2-3 games a season (vs 7-10 losses), that's a decent showing. It takes a mature kid to take that in stride.

I imagine much the same happens in hockey. An urban youth team has to compete for icetime with all sorts of rec leagues, higher level leagues, and other youth programs. Then they face off against a suburban team who gets double + more icetime, and they lose by a lot.

And what's their goal, anyway? My kid wants to play in HS (and the only way that will happens in NYC is through strong academics), and if things go really well he may have a chance to play D3 in college. But none of that has a direct impact on his future ability to navigate the world, or make a living. (I strongly believe, of course, that the kind of thinking and attitude req'd to be a team player does translate to other areas, but obv not in the same way as playing for money or scholarships.)

I would not be surprised if people play hockey with similar sets of goals in Montreal. There's a lot of love for the sport, but It's a completely different mindset. And I'm saying that because despite the language, no place feels more similar to Brooklyn to me than Montreal right down to the big park on the hill, to the cemetery on the slope, to the crowd of parents hanging out after work with their kids sharing field space with other families.

And this is all, btw, from the pov of a relatively privileged person. But we sure as heck would be struggling if we only had a single income.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I believe there's another item: the lack of playing space per capita.

This is a huge factor. Rink construction has slowed to a crawl in Canada.

Take the greater Regina area for example. The city runs 14 indoor rinks (though one isn't available for minor hockey), so 13 rinks for 3-15 year olds to play in. This is for a population of 240,000 people. The immediate rural communities provide 6 rinks. So 19 bookable rinks for the 280,000 people in greater Regina. This is one rink per 14,700 people.

In 2001, the greater Regina area was about 195,000 people. While we've built five rinks since then, we've also demolished two. So 16 bookable rinks for 195,000 people. Or one rink per 12,200 people.

Per capita, we just have fewer rinks. And that's not getting into the increased competition from ice time from ringette and girl's hockey. Or that one of the rinks today has been closed for two winters for construction and the other one is so decrepit and small that they don't book kids over 8 there anymore. Or that we've only built two outdoor rinks since the 90s, while closing three.

It's just harder to find ice time.

 

[saintunspecified]

Take the greater Regina area for example. The city runs 14 indoor rinks (though one isn't available for minor hockey), so 13 rinks for 3-15 year olds to play in. This is for a population of 240,000 people. The immediate rural communities provide 6 rinks. So 19 bookable rinks for the 280,000 people in greater Regina. This is one rink per 14,700 people.

I grew up across the street from what is now one of the major centers for youth hockey on Long Island (Dix Hills Park now Clark Gillies arena). And those numbers are orders of magnitude better than anything even in the NY suburbs. The town of Huntington itself (of which Dix Hills is a part & has only 2 rinks) has a population of 200,000 people. Iceworks (another major center) is in the town of Oyster Bay which has 300,000 people. The ratio in NYC is another order of magnitude worse.

No surprise at all that hockey families generate an outsize share of elite talent.