Jim Coleman Conference Semi Finals - Vancouver Millionaires (2) vs Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs (3)

[ResilientBeast]

No - I thought it was a joke.

I fully acknowledge as the Pope Of Taylorology his all round game when a rover/center isn't fleshed out well mainly because he doesn't get the mentions in game summaries. But as I posted already in this thread when he plays CP get gets those mentions about excellent defensive play.

Bentley won the Hart in the post-war year. Bentley served in the War and missed three peak seasons to it (he was third in scoring in the year before he went to the war, and won the next two Art Ross trophies after it).

He won his Hart in 1946....the top 5 in voting was Gaye Stewart, Bill Duran, Harry Lumely and Jack Stewart damn what a tough year to win lol

All his main competition for awards outside of the Habs like Apps and Schmidt just returned from the war. You can't say with a straight face that you'd expect them to return at their peaks after serving. Credit to Bentley who came back and managed to win, but it's not exactly a great win IMO

 

[ResilientBeast]

Is Tommy Phillips the worst offensive player in either of our top 6s?

He has one season in the ECHA where he finishes 2nd* behind his own teammate Marty Walsh and then a bunch of seasons in the MHL

Then caps his career off with a PCHA season where he finishes 7th league-wide and 4th on his own team.

I have no idea how to treat the MHL but it was clear steps behind the other major leagues at the time.

 

[The Macho King]

Wasn't there some... funny business... with assists being given in Chicago around this time frame? I apologize and retract this statement if it is incorrect, but I feel like I remember some chatter about this.

7 years has traditionally been the mark of an acceptable career length for the ATD.

In his 7 years, McDavid has 3 Art Ross trophies, 2 Harts, and 3 AS-1 nods. Bentley in a full career couldn't achieve those accolades. The comparison requires no projection- McDavid has been a more accomplished player in 7 (6, actually, since we are not projecting this season) seasons than Bentley was in 12.

Once again - Bentley lost three *peak* seasons to the war. Reading the right column of Hockey Reference is not fair to him or others.

As to the assists issue - I'm sure someone has some data on this, but generally assists were inconsistently given out just as a general matter during that frame. I don't know which arenas had more biases than others. I recall something similar though (but even then - in one of his AR seasons he had a 9 point gap over second place, so I doubt you could argue assist counting led to that large of a gap).

 

[The Macho King]

I fully acknowledge as the Pope Of Taylorology his all round game when a rover/center isn't fleshed out well mainly because he doesn't get the mentions in game summaries. But as I posted already in this thread when he plays CP get gets those mentions about excellent defensive play.



He won his Hart in 1946....the top 5 in voting was Gaye Stewart, Bill Duran, Harry Lumely and Jack Stewart damn what a tough year to win lol

All his main competition for awards outside of the Habs like Apps and Schmidt just returned from the war. You can't say with a straight face that you'd expect them to return at their peaks after serving. Credit to Bentley who came back and managed to win, but it's not exactly a great win IMO

This feels like it would be a more meritorious argument if it was a guy like Lach or Richard who *didn't* leave. Bentley left and came back in top form while others took longer to get back to it. Why should we hold that against him?

Also- I mean he still did beat Lach and Richard. They were in the league. It's not his fault they had down years.

 

[ResilientBeast]

This feels like it would be a more meritorious argument if it was a guy like Lach or Richard who *didn't* leave. Bentley left and came back in top form while others took longer to get back to it. Why should we hold that against him?

Also- I mean he still did beat Lach and Richard. They were in the league. It's not his fault they had down years.

When comparing his resume to Connor McDavid's it very much does matter.

Edit: as @rmartin65 said you talk about the "fullness" of a resume, but Kucherov and McDavid have pretty much caught Bentley and Kucherov and it only took them 7 seasons

 

[The Macho King]

When comparing his resume to Connor McDavid's it very much does matter.

Edit: as @rmartin65 said you talk about the "fullness" of a resume, but Kucherov and McDavid have pretty much caught Bentley and Kucherov and it only took them 7 seasons

I think we can appropriately assume that Bentley's three missed peak seasons due to fighting Hitler shouldn't be held against him. I believe we traditionally have done so. Add three peak seasons to Bentley and his offensive resume is comparable with McDavid. And he also brings in great playoff bona fides.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Connor McDavid

Points
1, 1, 1, 2, 2 ?
Hart
1, 1, 3, 5, 5 ?
AST
1, 1, 1, 1, 3, ?

Max Bentley

Points
1, 1, 3, 3 5
Hart
1, 3, 4
AST
1, 2

McDavid doesn't have a signature playoff run and I won't project. But Bentley only achieved playoff success once he moved to Toronto and was no longer the primary offensive option for the team. The gulf in RS resume is massive.

On Chicago, he had 7 playoff points in 11 games for the Blackhawks.....

 

[ResilientBeast]

I think we can appropriately assume that Bentley's three missed peak seasons due to fighting Hitler shouldn't be held against him. I believe we traditionally have done so.

Two missed seasons

1943-44
1944-45

 

[rmartin65]

Once again - Bentley lost three *peak* seasons to the war. Reading the right column of Hockey Reference is not fair to him or others.

He did. But - and I am aware this sounds harsh - he did what he did. Some things are more important than hockey, and I commend ALL the players that left to fight in WWII. But that doesn't mean we should give him credit (hockey-wise) for things he didn't do. We are not projecting McDavid's or Kucherov's career, so I don't think we should project what Bentley might have done. He may have been great. He may have had down years. He may have gotten injured and thus never wins those Art Ross trophies. The sad fact of the matter is, we will never know what may have happened in those years.

As to the assists issue - I'm sure someone has some data on this, but generally assists were inconsistently given out just as a general matter during that frame. I don't know which arenas had more biases than others. I recall something similar though (but even then - in one of his AR seasons he had a 9 point gap over second place, so I doubt you could argue assist counting led to that large of a gap).

Eh... I'm not convinced 9 points is a particularly dominating performance if we are wondering if manufactured assists gave him the award.

In 1945-46, he won the AR by 9 points. Gaye Stewart, who came in second, actually had more goals. Stewart was only credited with 15 assists- less than half of what Bentley received. Now, Bentley was a better playmaker than Stewart, but that is quite a gap in assists- especially when one sees how Stewart had a 29 assist season in Chicago 2 years later.

In 1946-1947, Bentley wins the Art Ross by one point. He had 17 more assists than the second place finisher (Maurice Richard). Certainly any manufactured assists there would have altered the race.

Again, though- I don't have the details on how/if/when exactly Chicago was giving out the extra assists. I don't think I am misrepresenting anything, but I could be working off of incorrect or misremembered comments.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Add three peak seasons to Bentley and his offensive resume is comparable with McDavid. And he also brings in great playoff bona fides.

I refuse to let you just say "add two (because you mis-counted) peak seasons" to his resume because it's pretty clear that McDavid's peak is higher than Bentley's.

That's just absolutely the laziest way to try and get value from a player who missed time to WWII

 

[ResilientBeast]

Again, though- I don't have the details on how/if/when exactly Chicago was giving out the extra assists. I don't think I am misrepresenting anything, but I could be working off of incorrect or misremembered comments.

I remember those comments as well but haven't been able to find them via search

@Sturminator @TheDevilMadeMe does the idea of Chicago inflating assists ring a bell?

 

[rmartin65]

Edit: as @rmartin65 said you talk about the "fullness" of a resume, but Kucherov and McDavid have pretty much caught Bentley and Kucherov and it only took them 7 seasons

I'd argue that McDavid, at least, has surpassed Bentley. Kucherov has (to me) clearly surpassed Cournoyer, but I would still rank Bentley over Kucherov (based on longevity).

 

[ResilientBeast]

I remember those comments as well but haven't been able to find them via search

@Sturminator @TheDevilMadeMe does the idea of Chicago inflating assists ring a bell?

Found a post by TDMM referencing it

ATD 2022 Draft Thread II

So the inflation of assist totals for the 1940s for Chicago players relative to the league average is something of note.

 

[rmartin65]

I think we can appropriately assume that Bentley's three missed peak seasons due to fighting Hitler shouldn't be held against him. I believe we traditionally have done so. Add three peak seasons to Bentley and his offensive resume is comparable with McDavid. And he also brings in great playoff bona fides.

There is a difference between holding something against a player (like one would do for down seasons) and not giving credit for something that the player didn't do. It sucks for Bentley that he lost a couple (potential) peak years. But it also sucks that Crosby had concussion issues, or that (more tragically) Hod Stuart died at 28, and that Allan Davidson died at 24 during WWI. But we don't project what those players may have accomplished otherwise.

 

[ResilientBeast]

For the two seasons we're focusing in on from Bentley, done very quickly on my lunch break

1945-46

Tm	G	A	A/G
CBH	200	248	1.24
TOR	174	197	1.132184
MTL	172	196	1.139535
NYR	144	147	1.020833
BOS	167	187	1.11976
DET	146	168	1.150685

1946-47

Tm	G	A	A/G
CBH	180	236	1.311111
TOR	164	202	1.231707
MTL	189	239	1.26455
NYR	133	153	1.150376
BOS	147	212	1.442177
DET	168	205	1.220238

Both definitely higher than average, 1945-46 quite dramatically so.

1946-47 the Habs scored 9 more goals but were only credited with 3 more assists.

 

[The Macho King]

I refuse to let you just say "add two (because you mis-counted) peak seasons" to his resume because it's pretty clear that McDavid's peak is higher than Bentley's.

That's just absolutely the laziest way to try and get value from a player who missed time to WWII

McDavid's peak is absolutely higher as far as both talent and domination relative to peers - sure. McDavid is the best player in the league - Bentley was at best second, but most likely in the 3-5 range. I was referring solely to resume (as defined as trophy case), Bentley's would be more comparable with those two seasons added.

And yeah - I can't count. Fair enough.

But I also refuse to just discount missed seasons due to the war, and I think attempting to do so is both against established precedent and also just a shitty thing to do.

Connor McDavid

Points
1, 1, 1, 2, 2 ?
Hart
1, 1, 3, 5, 5 ?
AST
1, 1, 1, 1, 3, ?

Max Bentley

Points
1, 1, 3, 3 5
Hart
1, 3, 4
AST
1, 2

McDavid doesn't have a signature playoff run and I won't project. But Bentley only achieved playoff success once he moved to Toronto and was no longer the primary offensive option for the team. The gulf in RS resume is massive.

On Chicago, he had 7 playoff points in 11 games for the Blackhawks.....

Bentley absolutely *was* the primary offensive option for Toronto. He led the league in playoff scoring once and was second twice in their Cup runs. Seems more of a Crosby/Malkin situation with Kennedy rather than him being second fiddle.

 

[The Macho King]

For the two seasons we're focusing in on from Bentley, done very quickly on my lunch break

1945-46

Tm	G	A	A/G
CBH	200	248	1.24
TOR	174	197	1.132184
MTL	172	196	1.139535
NYR	144	147	1.020833
BOS	167	187	1.11976
DET	146	168	1.150685

1946-47

Tm	G	A	A/G
CBH	180	236	1.311111
TOR	164	202	1.231707
MTL	189	239	1.26455
NYR	133	153	1.150376
BOS	147	212	1.442177
DET	168	205	1.220238

Both definitely higher than average, 1945-46 quite dramatically so.

1946-47 the Habs scored 9 more goals but were only credited with 3 more assists.

I don't think we can look at A/G average and tell anything. We would need to see some arena-biases to show anything.

For instance - only 3 more assists with 9 goals, but your primary goal scorer is known as a guy who does it by himself? That doesn't tell me anything.

 

[ResilientBeast]

McDavid's peak is absolutely higher as far as both talent and domination relative to peers - sure. McDavid is the best player in the league - Bentley was at best second, but most likely in the 3-5 range. I was referring solely to resume (as defined as trophy case), Bentley's would be more comparable with those two seasons added.

And yeah - I can't count. Fair enough.

But I also refuse to just discount missed seasons due to the war, and I think attempting to do so is both against established precedent and also just a shitty thing to do.


Bentley absolutely *was* the primary offensive option for Toronto. He led the league in playoff scoring once and was second twice in their Cup runs. Seems more of a Crosby/Malkin situation with Kennedy rather than him being second fiddle.

It's not a shitty thing to do it's fact.....I'm not goiing to say Bentley has poor longevity as an elite player because I acknowledge the unfortunate situation that was the Nazis. But I'm not also going to fabricate results to try and approximate what could've happened.

And you are correct, that was a marginal overstep, my knowledge of the late 40s/early 50s Leafs is clearly lacking. Looking at the scoring tables a 1a/1b situation appears to be accurate

Edit: Also the established precedent isn't to just fabricate seasons to bridge the gap, omg

 

[ResilientBeast]

Edit: Also the established precedent isn't to just fabricate seasons to bridge the gap, omg

I cannot state this emphatically enough

The precedent for players who missed WWII was never to pump their resume by just fabricating prime seasons to bridge the gap against players who were lucky enough to never have to join a war effort.

I don't penalize these players for "shorter resumes" and coming back and playing poorly, but I wouldn't just assume the missed seasons would be at their peak level. Lots can happen in a hockey season.

 

[rmartin65]

Thanks for a good series, @The Macho King !

 

[The Macho King]

Good luck next round.

 

[ResilientBeast]

You built a great team Macho, not shocked it was that close

 

[The Macho King]

You built a great team Macho, not shocked it was that close

Thanks. I love your team too.

Honestly, I feel like my draft started coming apart with the Cournoyer pick. It really led to my second line being too one-note.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Thanks. I love your team too.

Honestly, I feel like my draft started coming apart with the Cournoyer pick. It really led to my second line being too one-note.

You can audit @rmartin65 and I's long thread

I thought it started coming apart about 15x for us lol

It was refreshing going back and forth with no VsX numbers being summed up and thrown around

 

[The Macho King]

You can audit @rmartin65 and I's long thread

I thought it started coming apart about 15x for us lol

It was refreshing going back and forth with no VsX numbers being summed up and thrown around

I'm on record kind of hating VsX. Like it's fine as a tool but some people really get tied to them.