Pre-Consolidation Draft
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BenchBrawl
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All excluded.
None of them is a pre-consolidation player. If you include them, may as well do a pre-WWII draft.
Tougher case is a guy like Billy Burch, Art Gagne, etc.
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BenchBrawl
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I mean, unless you want to include them just so there's enough big name players. I guess it doesn't matter if we include them or not, and if we're strict with the "pre-consolidation" criteria or not.
But if we include them, let's include their whole legacy.
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On another front, how many competent rovers are they for the purpose of this draft?
But if we include them, let's include their whole legacy.
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On another front, how many competent rovers are they for the purpose of this draft?
I think the concern isn’t over whether there are big names or not, but rather if players are pre-consolidation or not. For the record, at the moment, I’m leaning towards all those guys being mentioned are out.
And I think we are going to include players’ entire legacies, unless I missed something.
BenchBrawl
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Having big name players has the advantage of reducing the workload necessary to build a team because GMs already know those players. We're in summer time, I'm not sure I'm up for a big time diving into newspapers to figure out who some rando WHL player is.
Although I'm not sure if this is a problem or not, whether we have enough ATD-level players for our purpose already or not (including the Jack Darragh types). I'll see if I can come up with a list of possible candidates to be drafted, and how the numbers works out.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I'd be inclined to include Gagne as his peak was clearly in the WCHL.
The Macho King
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My suggestion would be a number of relevant pre-consolidation seasons (relevant as defined as something akin to a full season of play).
If you set it at 3, I think Morenz would be in. If it's at 4, Bill Cook is in while Morenz is out. If it's 5, that is I think where you start thinning the herd a bit.
I don't necessarily think we should make a determination as to whether a pre-consolidation season was a "peak" or "prime" season though. That can make shit really fuzzy and engenders debate in a way that I don't think serves a ton of purpose and will undoubtedly lead to a patented ATD blow-up series of posts. Bright line, reasonable rule and stick to it irrespective of performance.
Set number of seasons with a threshold number of games played (call it 60% or something) in that season to qualify as a "pre-consolidation" season.
If you set it at 3, I think Morenz would be in. If it's at 4, Bill Cook is in while Morenz is out. If it's 5, that is I think where you start thinning the herd a bit.
I don't necessarily think we should make a determination as to whether a pre-consolidation season was a "peak" or "prime" season though. That can make shit really fuzzy and engenders debate in a way that I don't think serves a ton of purpose and will undoubtedly lead to a patented ATD blow-up series of posts. Bright line, reasonable rule and stick to it irrespective of performance.
Set number of seasons with a threshold number of games played (call it 60% or something) in that season to qualify as a "pre-consolidation" season.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I was inclined to say debut by 1920-21 that keeps most of the wchl in and cuts out a lot of problems
The Macho King
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Where the line is is open to discussion and there isn't a "wrong answer" as much as "what date gives us the best version of this project" which is a matter of opinion, but that one is defensible. Ultimately I think taking a poll of the participants is the best way to answer that though.
There's also a question of how to factor in amateur or semi-pro sort of situations - players that were playing in a non-Stanley Cup competing league (mostly a factor in the 20s). Don't have an answer for that, just highlighting the issue.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Realistically those players don't really have a shot at being selected
The only non-cup contending league of note is the Big-4 before it became the WCHL IMO
The Macho King
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Was more referring to guys who played in those leagues but then had a few seasons in the NHL/WHL/PCHL (less of an issue I think). Basically I'm thinking about Bill Cook.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Cook has 4 seasons in the WCHL/WHL and 12 in the NHL
Seems pretty clear where he belongs imo
The Macho King
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I'm more curious as to what to make of his time at SSM (based on Hockey-Reference). I know nothing about it.
Bill Cook Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com
Checkout the latest stats of Bill Cook. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com
www.hockey-reference.com
It's an honestly question - based on his age I would say it wasn't a "junior" league. So what was it?
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I'm more curious as to what to make of his time at SSM (based on Hockey-Reference). I know nothing about it.
Bill Cook Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com
Checkout the latest stats of Bill Cook. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com
It's an honestly question - based on his age I would say it wasn't a "junior" league. So what was it?
Based on wikipedia just a Senior level hockey league in Ontario
Northern Ontario Hockey Association - Wikipedia
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
This is why in my mind it just made more sense to chop players careers of post 1925-26
If you want 3 seasons of Howie where he didn't win a scoring title or win a hart go ahead knock yourself out
If you want 3 seasons of Howie where he didn't win a scoring title or win a hart go ahead knock yourself out
Dreakmur
Registered User
I’d make a hard line for qualifying and count their entire careers. Offense is easy enough to measure, but intangibles are the very difficult to split within a career.
2 full seasons in pre-consolidation? 3 full seasons? 5 full seasons might make the most sense.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
This is kinda where I've landed if we want a hard rule.
You must've debuted in the PCHA/WCHL/NHL/Big 4 by the 1920-21 season - "The Frank Frederickson Line"
Because depending on how granular we go, we'd omit him and he's absolutely a pre-consolidation player
Dreakmur
Registered User
Cutting careers in half makes it pretty much impossible to evaluate anything outside of offense.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
That's going to be the spiciest pool of the eligibles imo
Because so many players will probably be best described as Rover/Any other position
Noticed this project. Could be interesting to watch.
Just a quick comment on this. I would say USAHA is worth noting too. In a time when pro leagues did struggle to attract new blood USAHA was quite good at it. Nels Stewart, Tiny Thompson... and so on. There were few players that were better than the time remembers them because they played in USAHA. And I guess most importantly 1925-1926 Pittsburgh Pirates that finished third in NHL in that season was basically the 1924-1925 USAHA champion Pittsburgh Yellow Jackets.
And I don´t see huge difference between Big-4 and SSHL during those few seasons that they co-existed.
I think @ResilientBeast 's 1920-1921 is the best way to go. It thins the pool pretty well, but I don't think it cuts anyone unfairly.
Any arguments against going forward with the 1920-21 debut cut-off and full-career player values?
Any arguments against going forward with the 1920-21 debut cut-off and full-career player values?
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I guess my comment isn't because of league quality rather what players "become" eligible. And since the Big 4 was a professional league (under the table) that became a viable contender for the cup it's slightly different
Nels Stewart isn't a pre-consolidation player but would become eligible
Art Gagne to me in a pre-consolidation player and stays eligible with that line drawn
When do you think the USAHA became a major player? Because if we are saying 1920-1921, that makes Stewart eligible, which... I don't know, I think of him pretty solidly as a post-consolidation guy. I'm not against it, but I'd like to hear more, if you have the time.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Don't write off the OHA. Look at the results of top players from there after they joined the NHL.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Sure but this becomes a philosophical discussion
Players who played in the Big4->WCHL I think would be considered pre-consolidation by in large
I'm having trouble finding a good scoring table for the OHA in this period since I let my SIHR lapse to see exactly who you mean
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