What kind of draft pick was this? I know it seems short sighted, but this guy has shit numbers in juniors...what was the appeal to draft him?
Mann is a DFDWhat kind of draft pick was this? I know it seems short sighted, but this guy has shit numbers in juniors...what was the appeal to draft him?
Does he not play with a puck on the ice?Mann is a DFD
He does, but he played for a weak team (16 of 18) who struggled to score goals and he doesn't normally play the PP (Tivey, Bilodeau and Ianniello are the PP D).Does he not play with a puck on the ice?
Right, but this would imply he's played on weak teams his whole career. At a certain point it's on the player and not the teams he's played on. Which if we're talking about a legit NHL prospect here (he was the only drafted prospect on the team for most of the season), he should be able to stand out among his (relatively weak) peers. Being a PP guy is part of that. 5th on your own blueline in scoring as you exhaust your junior eligibility? Not a great outlook for your pro career.He does, but he played for a weak team (16 of 18) who struggled to score goals and he doesn't normally play the PP (Tivey, Bilodeau and Ianniello are the PP D).
Chicoutimi went for it in 19-20 and 20-21 (his 16 yo year). He played his 17 year old season on year 0 of a rebuild and his 18 on year 1. Chicoutimi got a lot better this year, but Saint John is in year 1 of their own rebuild (two years post Memorial Cup).Right, but this would imply he's played on weak teams his whole career. At a certain point it's on the player and not the teams he's played on. Which if we're talking about a legit NHL prospect here (he was the only drafted prospect on the team for most of the season), he should be able to stand out among his (relatively weak) peers. Being a PP guy is part of that. 5th on your own blueline in scoring as you exhaust your junior eligibility? Not a great outlook for your pro career.
Who do you think are the best defensive defensemen in the NHL who don't put up big point totals?Chicoutimi went for it in 19-20 and 20-21 (his 16 yo year). He played his 17 year old season on year 0 of a rebuild and his 18 on year 1. Chicoutimi got a lot better this year, but Saint John is in year 1 of their own rebuild (two years post Memorial Cup).
It's great to say that he should be doing more, but Ianniello and Bilodeau are both offensive D who have the puck on their sticks in the offensive zone a lot.
There's a reason why you take stats with a grain of salt. Mann was very good defenisvely.
Carlo, Cernak, Benoit were all DFD in the CHL.Who do you think are the best defensive defensemen in the NHL who don't put up big point totals?
Nobody is arguing against that, but using points isn't great, because all of the guys that I mentioned were playing on contenders (where they would get a lot of cheap points).In the last 20 years, the worst 5 stats profiles in draft year for drafted Dmen who became NHLers:
Jakub Kindl: 0.23 P/GP, 0.11 non-PP P/GP, 6.7% of team production
Rob Bortuzzo: 0.22 P/GP, 0.13 non-PP P/GP, 5.7% of team production
Ben Chiarot: 0.18 P/GP, 0.16 non-PP P/GP, 5.4% of team production
Mark Fraser: 0.14 P/GP, 0.14 non-PP P/GP, 4.1% of team production
Jake Muzzin: 0.11 P/GP, 0.08 non-PP P/GP, 3.3% of team production
Matteo Mann: 0.11 P/GP, 0.11 non-PP P/GP, 3.2% of team production
Annnnd their draft+1:
Jakub Kindl: 0.98 P/GP, 0.18 non-PP P/GP, 26.1% of team production
Rob Bortuzzo: 0.35 P/GP, 0.27 non-PP P/GP, 8.2% of team production
Ben Chiarot: 0.31 P/GP, 0.27 non-PP P/GP, 9.5% of team production
Mark Fraser: 0.09 P/GP, 0.07 non-PP P/GP, 2.4% of team production
Jake Muzzin: 0.27 P/GP, 0.12 non-PP P/GP, 7.4% of team production
Matteo Mann: 0.31 P/GP, 0.24 non-PP P/GP, 11.4% of team production
So yeh...
Jake Muzzin and Mark Fraser, out of 425 CHL Dmen drafted between 2005-2020, made the NHL with such low-end seasons as Mann has had at age 17-18. 113/425 guys made the NHL and stuck.
The odds of him making the NHL are infinitesimal.
Nobody is arguing against that, but using points isn't great, because all of the guys that I mentioned were playing on contenders (where they would get a lot of cheap points).
Carlo, Cernak, Benoit were all DFD in the CHL.
Virtually every other DFD in the NHL was a TWD in junior who adapted.
Something to keep in mind is that the failure rate of CHL DFD is high, but not impossible.
This works the other way too. If he plays on such poor teams, and he's an NHL caliber prospect, he should be able to get the minutes and usage to put up respectable production. Again he was 5th on his own team in D scoring this year. You saying the team wasn't good only makes the argument look worse.Nobody is arguing against that, but using points isn't great, because all of the guys that I mentioned were playing on contenders (where they would get a lot of cheap points).
I don't care to discuss in EA Sports NHL classifications, but this is my point about dismissing point totals at the Junior level. Of course you can poke holes through them, but most NHLers, even the the lowest skilled ones put up points at that level. It's a measure of decision making, puck skill, consistency. Matteo Mann will never be on an NHL PP, but operating a CHL PP can at least show that he has the ability to make plays with the puck, quick decisions under pressure, anticipate passing lanes - things that still do transfer over to being a good "defensive defenseman".
This works the other way too. If he plays on such poor teams, and he's an NHL caliber prospect, he should be able to get the minutes and usage to put up respectable production. Again he was 5th on his own team in D scoring this year. You saying the team wasn't good only makes the argument look worse.