Stan Kroenke joins real estate group building NHL/NBA quality arena in San Diego

[KevFu]

Wow, I definitely thought I had responded in this thread. Turns out I was on the main boards. The question about that is... why?

Anyway, like I said there... I've had San Diego as the most viable mid-sized market available to the NHL for a while. It's the only 3m+ MSA without NHL or NBA (excepting the de-centralized Inland Empire). It's a distinct market from LA/Anaheim. Austin takes a hit because there's a massive market nearby that doesn't yet have a team. If you're going to put another team in TX, Houston would need to be the priority. It has 50% more people than KC.

That's just market though... the arena was the big roadblock. Really, if they could figure out an arena, it's a perfect place for the NHL IMO. And if I were Meruelo, I'd be seriously looking to relocate there if all the alternatives in PHX fall through.

I 100% agree. Before the referendum lost, I was thinking that the next logical step after the "smoke" of Atlanta and Houston... you bring Quebec and San Diego for 36.

I probably was the first one talking San Diego all the way back in the pre-Vegas/Seattle days.

 

[Tawnos]

I 100% agree. Before the referendum lost, I was thinking that the next logical step after the "smoke" of Atlanta and Houston... you bring Quebec and San Diego for 36.

I probably was the first one talking San Diego all the way back in the pre-Vegas/Seattle days.

Yeah, it's a good spot.

The only issue I can see with relocation is related to alignment. You want to make sure SD is in a division with LA and Anaheim. The only somewhat realistic way to achieve that is by moving the Alberta teams to the Central and moving Colorado and the relocated Coyotes to the Pacific. You're making Vancouver unhappy, though they might be a little mollified by the Kraken.... and you are making Winnipeg happier.

 

[aqib]

They won't be in the America West situation, it's going to be built FOR HOCKEY because they have the American Hockey League San Diego Gulls if they don't upgrade to an NHL team.

We're talking how many upper bowl seats the place has. If you're building a new, modern arena, you're building it for suites, premium seating, and the "normals" will have congregating social spaces on the upper levels more than "spend the whole game in your upper bowl seats."

The general consensus is that building smaller venues increases demand. MLB stadiums have been shrinking capacity for decades now. Tons of ballparks are removing seats and putting in social areas. Five of the last eight NHL arenas that opened are smaller than the average NHL capacity (WIN, NJD, VGK, SEA, NYI).

Seattle - 17,151
Devils - 17,625 at first its come down a bit since now its like 16.5k
Vegas - 17,367
Islanders - 17,255
Without including Mullet the League average is 18.3K capacity. So even though they maybe below the average its not by much.

Only Winnipeg was below 17K at construction. San Diego can't expect to get an NHL team if its below 15K.

Don't forget concerts and other events. You're going to be competing with the Honda Center that less than an hour and a half away and holds about 19K for concerts and the Forum 2 hours away which holds like 18K (not to mention the Intuit Dome coming in).

 

[KevFu]

Don't forget concerts and other events. You're going to be competing with the Honda Center that less than an hour and a half away and holds about 19K for concerts and the Forum 2 hours away which holds like 18K (not to mention the Intuit Dome coming in).

You're NOT competing with the Honda Center for events. There's 3.5 million people in San Diego, and they want a new arena/events center because theirs is crazy old.

How many times do we have to go over the event competition thing being complete non-sense?

The number of events is dictated by the number of arenas who agree to open their doors to make money. More arenas = more events that CAN happen.

 

[Brodie]

That'd be silly. They should put teams in San Diego and Riverside before taking a team out of Anaheim.

I don't see there being any value in Anaheim to the league. All the Ducks do is take one big market and split it into, respectively, a medium sized market and a small market. Moving them to San Diego creates a bigger market for the Kings and gives the league total control over a decently sized market in fall/winter.

It isn't the biggest issue in the NHL, but the lack of unique markets outside of Canada and the oversaturation of markets like LA and NYC when there aren't THAT many fans to go around is definitely an issue.

 

[GKJ]

Everyone else has 2 LA teams, so there’s no reason why the NHL shouldn’t or shouldn’t think they do the same. But the market is going to be decidedly tilted toward the actual LA team, which is also the case in all the leagues.

 

[Tecumseh]

I don't see there being any value in Anaheim to the league. All the Ducks do is take one big market and split it into, respectively, a medium sized market and a small market. Moving them to San Diego creates a bigger market for the Kings and gives the league total control over a decently sized market in fall/winter.

It isn't the biggest issue in the NHL, but the lack of unique markets outside of Canada and the oversaturation of markets like LA and NYC when there aren't THAT many fans to go around is definitely an issue.

LA is a giant market and they do well having two teams in any professional sports league whether that be having two in LA or one in LA and one in Anaheim. I also don’t think you understand how beneficial it is for fans who live in Orange County to have their own team. Driving to LA on a game day is a guaranteed nightmare.

 

[MMC]

Is Cincinnati ever gonna get another new arena? They seem to be in a similar spot, probably big enough for NBA/NHL but a near 50 year old arena. Baltimore could also use a new, bigger arena, but I don't know if that'll happen anytime soon since theirs just got renovated recently.

 

[Brodie]

I just don't buy "everyone has 2 LA teams!" as a rationale... nobody else has three teams in NYC and that isn't stopping the NHL. More to the point, no other league plays hockey which is arguably the fifth most popular sport in Southern California

LA is a huge market but has a relatively limited number of hockey fans... splitting them among two teams actively makes the league less successful in SoCal than it could be. Putting the Ducks in their own market would add value

 

[Tawnos]

I don't see there being any value in Anaheim to the league. All the Ducks do is take one big market and split it into, respectively, a medium sized market and a small market. Moving them to San Diego creates a bigger market for the Kings and gives the league total control over a decently sized market in fall/winter.

It isn't the biggest issue in the NHL, but the lack of unique markets outside of Canada and the oversaturation of markets like LA and NYC when there aren't THAT many fans to go around is definitely an issue.

No, the Ducks take a absurdly huge market and split it into a still-plenty-huge market and a medium sized market. Orange County alone is 3 million people, which would make it a top 20 CSA in its own right if you split it from Greater LA (population 18 million). If you did that, Greater LA is still 5 million more people than Chicago or DC and is double the population of Greater Toronto-Hamilton.

Now I’m not saying the challenges arent bigger in LA because of a myriad of factors. I just think you underestimate the scale of the population there.

It’s also notable that San Diego isn’t even part of the Greater Los Angeles CSA. In terms of market, there’s no reason you couldn’t have 2 teams in LA and a team in San Diego, same as there are 3 teams in the NYC area and a team in Philadelphia.

 

[mightyquack]

I don't see there being any value in Anaheim to the league. All the Ducks do is take one big market and split it into, respectively, a medium sized market and a small market. Moving them to San Diego creates a bigger market for the Kings and gives the league total control over a decently sized market in fall/winter.

It isn't the biggest issue in the NHL, but the lack of unique markets outside of Canada and the oversaturation of markets like LA and NYC when there aren't THAT many fans to go around is definitely an issue.

If you truly believe Anaheim bring no value to the NHL, then you really have no idea what you're talking about to be frank.

The sheer magnitude of the investment the Samueli's have made since 2006 into grassroots hockey and making hockey more accessible for people in Orange County and in neighboring counties has more then justified Anaheim's expansion and then some.

 

[oknazevad]

Devils - 17,625 at first its come down a bit since now its like 16.5k

They didn't actually downsize. They just changed how they count suite capacity and SRO in their claimed capacity. The 16.5 k number is a more accurate count of actual seats facing the ice.

 

[aqib]

You're NOT competing with the Honda Center for events. There's 3.5 million people in San Diego, and they want a new arena/events center because theirs is crazy old.

How many times do we have to go over the event competition thing being complete non-sense?

The number of events is dictated by the number of arenas who agree to open their doors to make money. More arenas = more events that CAN happen.

Take any act that does arena shows. Are they really going to do stops in LA. OC, and San Diego if they can just do 2 out of the 3? So obviously the would do LA and then one of the other 2. If they do San Diego the OC fans can go to LA or SD if they do OC the SD fans can drive to OC. Just like shows that go to NY usually do NYC and either LI or NJ. When do you see someone do NY/LI/NJ in the same tour?

 

[oknazevad]

Take any act that does arena shows. Are they really going to do stops in LA. OC, and San Diego if they can just do 2 out of the 3? So obviously the would do LA and then one of the other 2. If they do San Diego the OC fans can go to LA or SD if they do OC the SD fans can drive to OC. Just like shows that go to NY usually do NYC and either LI or NJ. When do you see someone do NY/LI/NJ in the same tour?

But unlike the NYC/LI/NJ trio, San Diego is not the same market as LA and the OC. It's more akin to NYC and Philly. That's the point.

 

[aqib]

But unlike the NYC/LI/NJ trio, San Diego is not the same market as LA and the OC. It's more akin to NYC and Philly. That's the point.

The current San Diego arena is about an hour to an hour and half from the Honda Center. So for a lot of people the two arenas are equidistant. Whereas Long Island to Jersey can be 3 hours on a weekday. For example when I lived in Long Island I went to Browns games in Jersey and Cleveland in back to back weeks. In both cases it was a 1PM game ended around 4 and I left the post game tailgate at 5. It only took me one extra hour to get back to my house from Cleveland than it did from New Jersey.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I just don't buy "everyone has 2 LA teams!" as a rationale... nobody else has three teams in NYC and that isn't stopping the NHL. More to the point, no other league plays hockey which is arguably the fifth most popular sport in Southern California

LA is a huge market but has a relatively limited number of hockey fans... splitting them among two teams actively makes the league less successful in SoCal than it could be. Putting the Ducks in their own market would add value

San Diego is not LA, it isnt particularly close to LA, has a completely different culture around it and it in no way identifies itself with LA. San Diego is 120 miles from LA. That's 16 miles farther than NYC to Philly (104 miles)

The current San Diego arena is about an hour to an hour and half from the Honda Center. So for a lot of people the two arenas are equidistant. Whereas Long Island to Jersey can be 3 hours on a weekday. For example when I lived in Long Island I went to Browns games in Jersey and Cleveland in back to back weeks. In both cases it was a 1PM game ended around 4 and I left the post game tailgate at 5. It only took me one extra hour to get back to my house from Cleveland than it did from New Jersey.

Yeah, everyone knows there's no traffic in southern California. I mean if it's all the same, then why did Spanos spend all that money moving The Chargers to LA?

 

[sh724]

Take any act that does arena shows. Are they really going to do stops in LA. OC, and San Diego if they can just do 2 out of the 3? So obviously the would do LA and then one of the other 2. If they do San Diego the OC fans can go to LA or SD if they do OC the SD fans can drive to OC. Just like shows that go to NY usually do NYC and either LI or NJ. When do you see someone do NY/LI/NJ in the same tour?

Any act that can do an arena show will do shows in all 3 assuming there is money to be made. A touring artist isnt going to have a problem doing 3 shows that are within a couple hours of each other if the shows are going to sell out. Tour schedules arent designed based on proximity they are designed to sell the most tickets. There is actually benefits to artist to do 3 shows in that area as there is a pretty good chance their record company, agency, etc has offices in the LA market and many artists have homes in SoCal as well.

 

[KevFu]

Take any act that does arena shows. Are they really going to do stops in LA. OC, and San Diego if they can just do 2 out of the 3? So obviously the would do LA and then one of the other 2. If they do San Diego the OC fans can go to LA or SD if they do OC the SD fans can drive to OC. Just like shows that go to NY usually do NYC and either LI or NJ. When do you see someone do NY/LI/NJ in the same tour?

I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of how it actually goes with touring/scheduling.

In all our heads, it's very orderly and logical. Like NHL teams do road trips of: BUF-TOR-DET, PHI-WAS-CAR, CBJ-PIT, NYR-NYI-NJD, right?

But on the actual schedule, you get a CAR-TOR-NJD-PHI road trip, where you're doubling back twice and putting a ton of needless miles on your team (That's from Montreal's actual 2023 schedule, first team I picked). And out of 41 road games, like THREE road trips of 8 games are what you'd expect logical road trips to be.

Artist touring is actually far worse logically. Because there's far more variables than 32 teams, 32 arenas and a calendar.

Take Taylor Swift for example (and she's "limited" to big NFL stadiums)... She's visiting: PHX-Vegas-LA-Bay Area-Seattle-Denver-Dallas-Houston-TB-ATL-NASH-CIN-CHI-MIN-DET-PIT-PHI-NY-BOS.

There's a path there, looks like an S but connects the dots efficiently. Makes sense, right?

Nah, the actual order of those cities is: PHX-LV-DAL-TB-HOU-ATL-NASH-PHI-BOS-NY-CHI-DET-PIT-MIN-KC-DEN-SEA-SF-LA. She doubles-back five times.



And the other point here is: You have CALIFORNIA posters saying that the Ducks are valuable to the league, partly because the 3 million people in Orange County don't want to deal with the drive to Staples Center.... but you're saying 3.5 million people in San Diego are willing to take the one route up to Anaheim? That's just bonkers.

 

[KevFu]

Is Cincinnati ever gonna get another new arena? They seem to be in a similar spot, probably big enough for NBA/NHL but a near 50 year old arena. Baltimore could also use a new, bigger arena, but I don't know if that'll happen anytime soon since theirs just got renovated recently.

Cincinnati isn't a great choice for an expansion team or relocation in anything.

They are a smaller city, with the two most expensive sports to support (NFL, MLB) and the NHL picked Columbus, which is 109 miles away.

I know we're talking about San Diego being separate from LA/Anaheim, and so me saying Cincy being 109 miles away from Lumbus is "too close" sounds weird.

3.5 million people makes you separate enough, and 2.2 million makes you not separate enough.

 

[aqib]

I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of how it actually goes with touring/scheduling.

In all our heads, it's very orderly and logical. Like NHL teams do road trips of: BUF-TOR-DET, PHI-WAS-CAR, CBJ-PIT, NYR-NYI-NJD, right?

But on the actual schedule, you get a CAR-TOR-NJD-PHI road trip, where you're doubling back twice and putting a ton of needless miles on your team (That's from Montreal's actual 2023 schedule, first team I picked). And out of 41 road games, like THREE road trips of 8 games are what you'd expect logical road trips to be.

Artist touring is actually far worse logically. Because there's far more variables than 32 teams, 32 arenas and a calendar.

Take Taylor Swift for example (and she's "limited" to big NFL stadiums)... She's visiting: PHX-Vegas-LA-Bay Area-Seattle-Denver-Dallas-Houston-TB-ATL-NASH-CIN-CHI-MIN-DET-PIT-PHI-NY-BOS.

There's a path there, looks like an S but connects the dots efficiently. Makes sense, right?

Nah, the actual order of those cities is: PHX-LV-DAL-TB-HOU-ATL-NASH-PHI-BOS-NY-CHI-DET-PIT-MIN-KC-DEN-SEA-SF-LA. She doubles-back five times.



And the other point here is: You have CALIFORNIA posters saying that the Ducks are valuable to the league, partly because the 3 million people in Orange County don't want to deal with the drive to Staples Center.... but you're saying 3.5 million people in San Diego are willing to take the one route up to Anaheim? That's just bonkers.

Its not about the order of the shows, its how many you would do in a particular region of the country. Like take Bruno Mars going through the midwest. He isn't going to do Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, Cinci, and Pittsburgh. His promoter is probably going to pick 3 out of the 5 depending on which venues pony up the best deal. So if he picks Detroit, Cleveland, and Cinci, it is anticipated that his Columbus and Pittsburgh fans will drive to one of the other cities. Similarly, someone isn't going to MSG, Barclays, UBS, and Prudential. Same thing in SoCal you're not doing LA, OC, and San Diego. Probably 2 out of the 3.

 

[KevFu]

Its not about the order of the shows, its how many you would do in a particular region of the country. Like take Bruno Mars going through the midwest. He isn't going to do Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, Cinci, and Pittsburgh. His promoter is probably going to pick 3 out of the 5 depending on which venues pony up the best deal. So if he picks Detroit, Cleveland, and Cinci, it is anticipated that his Columbus and Pittsburgh fans will drive to one of the other cities. Similarly, someone isn't going to MSG, Barclays, UBS, and Prudential. Same thing in SoCal you're not doing LA, OC, and San Diego. Probably 2 out of the 3.

But a ton of it has to do with things that are immaterial to the convo: In your hypothetical, he's not doing all five of those cities in the midwest.... because he wants to do a 20-city tour and not spend like 10 months straight on tour.

That really has nothing to do with what arenas exist and don't exist, it's the artist picking the length of the tour.

Artists DON'T book their tours to go UBS Arena, MSG, Barclay's, Prudential Center because it's silly. (And there's also non-sports arenas, too).

I'll use Pearl Jam as an example because I know their fan base is insane enough to track data on every tour and every venue they've ever been to. They've played TWENTY ONE New York Metro venues in their career: 8 Venues in Manhattan, 6 in New Jersey, 5 on Long Island, 2 in Queens.

They're either going to say "When can we play MSG?" and build their tour around that, OR they're going to say "Which venue can we get in between the Boston and Philly shows?"


You know the scene in Almost Famous, where Jimmy Fallon is telling them he know show to not pay for the ice under floor of the arena? There's stuff like that -- which arenas can your show FIT INTO with one set, no modifications. Who's got ridiculously impractical load-in and who's the easiest. There's also PERSONAL and individual band/artist history... Those guys are jerks no one likes dealing with; there's a local noise ordinance, our lead singer is banned from playing there because he started a riot.

What other sports arenas exist is like such a non-factor.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Its not about the order of the shows, its how many you would do in a particular region of the country. Like take Bruno Mars going through the midwest. He isn't going to do Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, Cinci, and Pittsburgh. His promoter is probably going to pick 3 out of the 5 depending on which venues pony up the best deal. So if he picks Detroit, Cleveland, and Cinci, it is anticipated that his Columbus and Pittsburgh fans will drive to one of the other cities. Similarly, someone isn't going to MSG, Barclays, UBS, and Prudential. Same thing in SoCal you're not doing LA, OC, and San Diego. Probably 2 out of the 3.

OC will be the odd man out in that scenario

 

[Brodie]

No, the Ducks take a absurdly huge market and split it into a still-plenty-huge market and a medium sized market. Orange County alone is 3 million people, which would make it a top 20 CSA in its own right if you split it from Greater LA (population 18 million). If you did that, Greater LA is still 5 million more people than Chicago or DC and is double the population of Greater Toronto-Hamilton.

Now I’m not saying the challenges arent bigger in LA because of a myriad of factors. I just think you underestimate the scale of the population there.

It’s also notable that San Diego isn’t even part of the Greater Los Angeles CSA. In terms of market, there’s no reason you couldn’t have 2 teams in LA and a team in San Diego, same as there are 3 teams in the NYC area and a team in Philadelphia.

I am well aware of how big the SoCal region is, but it is not a question of how many humans live there so much as how many of them are hockey fans. And while there are enough to support two teams, in practice this means one team with a very small and niche fanbase and one team with a moderate to large fanbase. If the Ducks were in San Diego, you would have one team with a moderately sized fanbase and one team with a consistently large fanbase.

This also plays into the larger question of venues going on... how much utility is there for an OC arena going forward once San Diego has a modern venue and the Clippers have their arena completed? Keep in mind that the Honda Center is soon to be the oldest venue in the NHL once Calgary builds their new arena... now might be a good time to look at alternatives going forward

 

[mightyquack]

I am well aware of how big the SoCal region is, but it is not a question of how many humans live there so much as how many of them are hockey fans. And while there are enough to support two teams, in practice this means one team with a very small and niche fanbase and one team with a moderate to large fanbase. If the Ducks were in San Diego, you would have one team with a moderately sized fanbase and one team with a consistently large fanbase.

This also plays into the larger question of venues going on... how much utility is there for an OC arena going forward once San Diego has a modern venue and the Clippers have their arena completed? Keep in mind that the Honda Center is soon to be the oldest venue in the NHL once Calgary builds their new arena... now might be a good time to look at alternatives going forward

The lease has been extended until 2053 and there is 4 billion dollars being invested in the area around the arena by the Samueli's.

The arena isn't a question anytime soon.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Like to see San Diego get an NHL Expansion team! Bring back the Mariners which was a great name for their WHA team way back when. Since losing the Chargers I bet San Diego is hungry for a team for the Autumn/Winter and with no NBA team since the Buffalo Braves/San Diego Clippers team left for LA also it seems like a great place to put a team starving for Professional Sports outside of the Padres