GDT: Trades & Free Agency -- Off-season edition

[Brobust]

Marner would be Huberdeau based on the situation and player style. I’m not sure how much you remember from the Tkachuk/Huberdeau trade but Huberdeau was seen as the better player at the time by the public and specifically this website.

Huberdeau ever a Selke candidate?

 

[Americanadian]

Huberdeau ever a Selke candidate?

No. Marner ever finish top 5 in hart voting?

If Huberdeau was the better player why was he packaged with another player, a prospect and a 1st round pick?

I said he was viewed as the better player publicly. Read the thread after the trade. He was 5th in hart voting that season.

He had less value than Tkachuk in trade because of his contract situation (1 year from UFA, looking for a raise he wouldn’t live up to). That is why he is comparable to Marner.

 

[Americanadian]

As I said, they were just hypothetical teams. Didn't have time to do the research this morning.

If they have the cap space, yes. After July 1st both players are owed less than $1M in real dollars. A 4th for $200K basically.

There isn’t a precedent for a team eating salary as a 3rd party for 1 season. I’ve been proposing the same thing but I think a team would want more than a 3rd or 4th. They could sell the retention a lot for that at the deadline.

 

[WTFMAN99]

liljegren for korscak and a 3rd

I'd damn near do it straight up but I am a mega Korczak fan boy.

I'm not a Montour fan, he is another Tyson Barrie only he would cost more money. The D I am interested in are Pesce, Zadorov and Tanev. The Leafs need more mobility and puck moving on defense too, but that will have to come through trade or the draft.

Or Montour.

There is a reason Florida isn't giving him the money he wants.

Yeah, comparing Montour to Barrie, but let's no compare Pesce, Zadorov and Tanev to their worst counterparts or even get into the 16M+ it would take to get them all locked up.

Montour's shot is significantly better than Barrie...at least in terms of power/velocity, it'll create rebounds or at least hurt a guy if they block it. The next benefit is he does have a physical game so it's not purely one-dimensional.

I think Montour is probably capped at 4-5 years 5.5-5.85M and after that I try for Ghost for 1 year and hide him on the 3rd pair.

I'll fully admit I am wanting to move away from Rielly.

 

[Malachi Crunch]

I have a bit of a controversial trade proposal.

Josh Norris - C (Ott) for Tavares - C (Tor)

Why Ottawa does it:

Speaking with friends from Ottawa, they feel that the fact that Norris has gotten injured often has thrown off the whole team and their lines. Many in Ottawa want a stable 2C. Tavares still produces at a 2C rate and is very durable. He may not fit with our squad, but may fit better with the 2nd line Ottawa wingers. He also provides some leadership and maturity to a group that needs it. Tavares is also a family guy and Ottawa is the closest place to play without crossing the border. Ottawa takes a little more of a cap hit with this trade, but that will decrease next year when Tavares's salary drops (if he resigns).

Why Toronto does it:

There's a lot of risk here! However, if Norris gets healthy (left shoulder is the issue), you have a great 2C for many years ahead. He had 35 goals in 2021-22. He's big, great passer, competitive, high IQ..... Also, his cap hit is 7.95 for the next six years. Good if he gets back to where he was, a disaster if he doesn't (although there's always the LTIR option).

 

[SprDaVE]

I'll fully admit I am wanting to move away from Rielly.

I'm in the opposite boat. I hope he retires a Leaf. He's been a warrior, he's low maintenance and typically comes up big in moments the Leafs need it, last year in particular he was by far the best Leafs player to me. He could have gotten more on the open market but signed long-term as soon as he could for very fair money. You know what you're getting with Rielly and for all the changes that need to happen, he's the one guy that I think can easily stick around.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I'm in the opposite boat. I hope he retires a Leaf. He's been a warrior, he's low maintenance and typically comes up big in moments the Leafs need it, last year in particular he was by far the best Leafs player to me. He could have gotten more on the open market but signed long-term as soon as he could for very fair money. You know what you're getting with Rielly and for all the changes that need to happen, he's the one guy that I think can easily stick around.

I'd counter that outside of the Tampa series where Vas played like a mortal, our PP has sucked in damn near every post-season under 2 head coaches and multiple assistant coaches.

Not just against BOS but against teams like CBJ and MTL, he's 1 of the 5 guys but he's not a shot threat and he's not all that great defensively, I think you can find a more dynamic PP QB for less and use excess $$ to bolster other areas.

 

[Folignos Helmet]

No. Marner ever finish top 5 in hart voting?


I said he was viewed as the better player publicly. Read the thread after the trade. He was 5th in hart voting that season.

He had less value than Tkachuk in trade because of his contract situation (1 year from UFA, looking for a raise he wouldn’t live up to). That is why he is comparable to Marner.

Tkachuk was also one year from UFA looking for a raise, lets just agree to disagree.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I'd counter that outside of the Tampa series where Vas played like a mortal, our PP has sucked in damn near every post-season under 2 head coaches and multiple assistant coaches.

Not just against BOS but against teams like CBJ and MTL, he's 1 of the 5 guys but he's not a shot threat and he's not all that great defensively, I think you can find a more dynamic PP QB for less and use excess $$ to bolster other areas.

Rielly definitely needs to be supplanted as the PP quarterback on this team. The powerplay woes aren’t all on him but he’s not a solution for it either.

 

[Fogelhund]

1. This team has had an elite PP for years.... it fell short in this playoffs... was 6th last year. Blaming a brief outage of the PP, that has otherwise been elite for years, seems short sighted.
2. What we've always needed, was a stabilizing factor for Rielly... a good partner... Schenn provided that... Boosh wasn't terrible. Hainsey provided that. When we have that, Rielly excels.
3. Point shots are overrated... but then, Timmins has a rocket

If you think we can find a more dynamic PP player... please propose who that might be, and how we will obtain them.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

The more I goof around on capfriendly the more likely it seems only one of Domi or Bertuzzi can be brought back. Barring a Marner trade there’s just not enough cap to keep both of those guys and improve the defence the way we want.

I lean more towards re-signing Domi because of his ability to play centre. As much as I like Bertuzzi’s fight and greasiness Knies is coming into his own in that regard and McMann plays heavy with an edge as well, and only had 6 fewer goals than Bertuzzi in 24 fewer games. McMann had significantly fewer assists but he didn’t spend a good chunk of time in a loaded top six like Bertuzzi did. Add Robertson to the mix as another left-winger with a goal scoring touch and the need to re-sign Bert drops.

Would really only want him for the continued culture shift and because I thought that line of him and Domi with Matthews did very well and I like the idea of Matthews being flanked by two guard dogs. Knies can probably do the job but he’s still growing and not as experienced yet.

 

[aingefan]

He's been getting better and better. Could be a surprise player going into next season. Trading him now would be a big mistake.

Totally agree. He has third wheel second line potential.

 

[Fogelhund]

The more I goof around on capfriendly the more likely it seems only one of Domi or Bertuzzi can be brought back. Barring a Marner trade there’s just not enough cap to keep both of those guys and improve the defence the way we want.

I lean more towards re-signing Domi because of his ability to play centre. As much as I like Bertuzzi’s fight and greasiness Knies is coming into his own in that regard and McMann plays heavy with an edge as well, and only had 6 fewer goals than Bertuzzi in 24 fewer games. McMann had significantly fewer assists but he didn’t spend a good chunk of time in a loaded top six like Bertuzzi did. Add Robertson to the mix as another left-winger with a goal scoring touch and the need to re-sign Bert drops.

Would really only want him for the continued culture shift and because I thought that line of him and Domi with Matthews did very well and I like the idea of Matthews being flanked by two guard dogs. Knies can probably do the job but he’s still growing and not as experienced yet.

The challenge with doing capfriendly rosters, is who stays, and who goes? How much cap room do we have, what comes back in trades... which of course depends on who you trade with. It's a fun exercise of course.

One of the board speculated destinations for Marner (if he's traded), has been Utah... wanting to make a big splash... imagine Crouse comes back in such a deal... well, then we are having different LW discussions...

 

[VanW27]

I see people are back on the blame Rielly train. I really don't get it, not only has he been good for us, he has been a consistently strong playoff performer.

Even this series where he wasn't as noticeable offensively. Counting stats are decent 3pts, +2 (on the ice for 2 empty netters against) and all the advanced stats are strong.

Powerplay is garbage but I don't see how the blame lays on Rielly at all. Hell we've tried 3 other guys who've shown they can QB an NHL powerplay and it's been a disaster every time. Barrie - horrifying Sandin - literally outscored by the PK, Klingberg - unplayable (to be fair, didn't play much)

At this point it's hard to pile on Marner, but he's clearly the problem, the indecision, the incredibly slow pace he tries to make the entry at, the passes that are so slow a snowy patch might stop them. The last time there was a referendum on the PP it took months of finger pointing, mostly at Rielly before everyone came to the realization that Marner was the problem. Anyone remember that? when it came out that the team couldn't take him off the PP or even change his role because it would hurt his feelings. Until finally it came to a head and he agreed to move to the bumper. Except in reality when they tried him in the bumper he would immediately abandon his position and move himself back to the half wall the first time he touched the puck.

 

[Rude Dog]

if marner comes back next season he should be boo'd heavily every time he touches the puck

Man, the mob is out for blood. I remember Babcock saying they need to change the culture to make Toronto a safe place for their players to play again. I get all why fans are upset. I get he is greedy, but chasing a local kid out with torches isn't going to help this team in the future when it comes to attracting future free agents who may just decide Toronto simply isn't worth the damage if / when things don't work out.

 

[Shanwhatplan]

His only goal in the series came from taking it to the net but he doesn't do that enough for sure but that's never been his game.

Agreed, but he has never been able to make up for that by contributing in other ways, consistently in the playoffs. A good example of that is how his production, as well as other core players, tend to tail off the longer a series goes.

 

[Shanwhatplan]

Marner is a passer, what value is there to have Marner in the corners doing puck battles?
He doesnt do it in the regular season, and shouldnt in the playoffs either, that isnt his role.

The main issue was when he had the puck, he seldom had anyone open, or the chance to pass to anyone, so, he got smothered a lot.
this is a 'system' and lineup problem, so, if its still an issue with the next coach, then maybe its a Marner problem.
Bert-Dimi-Marner 'looked' good together and had a lot of o-zone time, but Marner and Domi are both pass first guys, and Bertuzzi cant handle the puck take a pass, or ever get open for either of them or draw any pressure off of them.

It's funny how other teams' stars are able to play a different role when the need calls for it. One excellent example of that is what Pastrnak did in game 2 against Florida. I have watched many playoff series in my time, as I'm sure you have. Are you telling me that you have not seen other stars who are willing to do whatever it takes to win? That is the problem I have with Marner, and to a lesser extent Nylander. Matthews has clearly improved in that area, especially in the Boston series this year.

 

[Rude Dog]

If the Leafs plan to to rebuild via free agency we are in trouble. This team is no longer the up and coming team it was five years ago.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

1. This team has had an elite PP for years.... it fell short in this playoffs... was 6th last year. Blaming a brief outage of the PP, that has otherwise been elite for years, seems short sighted.

I dunno man. The powerplay looks like a wagon every regular season but then come playoff time it goes down the shitter. Maybe it’s just a symptom of the top guys turning into pumpkins every postseason so the powerplay, of which they’re integral parts of, suffers as well.

Either way I don’t know what else can be done besides a big change in terms of personnel or tactics on the PP. It’s frustrating watching them fail to capitalize to an absurd degree every postseason and it’s the same 5 guys out on the ice.

 

[Trapper]

If the Leafs plan to to rebuild via free agency we are in trouble. This team is no longer the up and coming team it was five years ago.

How would you propose that this up and coming team that started it’s build in 2014 rebuild and/or improve.

There are only 3 ways:
1. Drafting
2. Trading
3. UFA

What would be your plan after seeing 1 playoff win in 8 years.

 

[OVO16]

I want both Bertuzzi and Domi back.

Need to dump Kampf and Jarnkrok contracts somewhere to make that happen

 

[Fogelhund]

I dunno man. The powerplay looks like a wagon every regular season but then come playoff time it goes down the shitter. Maybe it’s just a symptom of the top guys turning into pumpkins every postseason so the poweplay, of which they’re integral parts of, suffers as well.

Either way I don’t know what else can be done besides a big change in terms of personnel or tactics on the PP. It’s frustrating watching them fail to capitalize to an absurd degree every postseason and it’s the same 5 guys out on the ice.

I appreciate what you are saying, but we are likely moving on from a forward or two here, plus a new PP coach. To me, special teams and their results are greatly dependent on coaching. I just don’t see Mo as the problem on it.

Who are we going to get, to make the situation better?

It’s fine to be angry and point fingers, but who are we getting, and what is the cost to improve our situation?

 

[SprDaVE]

If the Leafs plan to to rebuild via free agency we are in trouble. This team is no longer the up and coming team it was five years ago.

I don't disagree there. Many mistakes are made through free agency "frenzy". But I do think you can make significant upgrades through that means, you just need to be somewhat smart about it.

 

[TMLAM34]

Would love to somehow acquire either Chabot or Theodore via trade that doesn’t include Marner. It could include pieces from a separate Marner deal though.

Have either Chabot or Theodore on PP 1 and then Rielly on PP2. Would also like to see a more balanced PP unit 1 and 2… Create some internal competition instead of rolling PP1 always out for a minute 30 and giving the second unit 30 seconds if that… Having Matthews, Nylander and Chabot/Theodore carry unit 1 and Rielly and Tavares carry unit 2 would be good.

I appreciate what you are saying, but we are likely moving on from a forward or two here, plus a new PP coach. To me, special teams and their results are greatly dependent on coaching. I just don’t see Mo as the problem on it.

Who are we going to get, to make the situation better?

It’s fine to be angry and point fingers, but who are we getting, and what is the cost to improve our situation?

I keep mentioning Chabot’s name. His value is probably at the lowest it’ll be (mind you the cost still won’t be cheap of course).

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

The challenge with doing capfriendly rosters, is who stays, and who goes? How much cap room do we have, what comes back in trades... which of course depends on who you trade with. It's a fun exercise of course.

One of the board speculated destinations for Marner (if he's traded), has been Utah... wanting to make a big splash... imagine Crouse comes back in such a deal... well, then we are having different LW discussions...

My approach was moving out Jarnkrok and Kampf to make room for Bertuzzi and Domi, swapping one centre and winger duo for another. Jarnkrok you could probably get like a mid-late round pick for, Kampf you may need to add a sweetener. Maybe you package both together? Either way their removal would only free up about half the (speculated on my part) money needed to retain both Domi and Bertuzzi.

A Marner trade would be the easiest way to free up a lot of money but a deal involving him is too big to conceptualize. God knows who would be brought in, their position, and their cap hit. Easier to imagine a small time trade of middle/bottom sixers.

I appreciate what you are saying, but we are likely moving on from a forward or two here, plus a new PP coach. To me, special teams and their results are greatly dependent on coaching. I just don’t see Mo as the problem on it.

Who are we going to get, to make the situation better?

It’s fine to be angry and point fingers, but who are we getting, and what is the cost to improve our situation?

Yeah the good news is change is a coming regardless so the powerplay will look different.

As far as potential replacements there is a free agent option is Montour who’s run a powerplay effectively before and has a good shot. Shayne Gostisbehere also has some pretty decent numbers on the PP but I wouldn’t consider him a premium target. Outside of them the only other options would be via trade, probably involving Mitch.

If the next coaching staff can get the powerplay to work with Mo in the playoffs by all means keep him there. I just don’t want to see the same slow drop pass approach where they can’t penetrate the zone, can’t set up, and if by some miracle they do manage those first two things they fling the puck around completely non threateningly.