What age should kids be solo training by?

[tarheelhockey]

I can't have this conversation with you anymore,..

You're just wrong, and I'm out of patience

I can’t help your lack of patience, nor your naive understanding of what it’s like to attempt a college-level biochemistry class after years of blowing off math and science.

The path to a medical degree is brutally difficult for people who put 100% of their eggs in the academic basket from an early age. Why do you think doctors make so much money? Because any average person can just flip a switch and become one whenever they feel like it?

 

[Golden_Jet]

You think a teenager who blew off school to focus on athletics is just going to flip a switch in college and suddenly become a doctor?

I’m sorry, that’s just as far-fetched as walking on to the football team and becoming an NFL player. You’re seriously underestimating the amount of long-term intensive preparation required to compete for med school.

Hailey Wickenheiser did just that, after her hockey career ended, is now Dr. Wickenheiser. Started taking a few classes while still playing.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Nobody should be dropping out of school to focus on athletics, lol. If you want to make that decision when you're 18 then that's fine, but definitely not when you're like 12 just because Dad thinks he could have made the Big Leagues with a bit more training.

 

[Yukon Joe]

If someone has the drive and dedication to become a high level athlete, there's a better than average chance that same drive and dedication would translate to education as well.

 

[WarriorofTime]

If someone has the drive and dedication to become a high level athlete, there's a better than average chance that same drive and dedication would translate to education as well.

ehh

 

[tarheelhockey]

Hailey Wickenheiser did just that, after her hockey career ended, is now Dr. Wickenheiser. Started taking a few classes while still playing.

She already had a college degree before that. It’s not like she went to college a decade late.

(Not to mention she’s one of the most famous living Canadians who can do pretty much anything she wants, which bears no relation to an athlete who washes out and is trying to figure out how to get their life together)

 

[Neutrinos]

Nobody should be dropping out of school to focus on athletics, lol. If you want to make that decision when you're 18 then that's fine, but definitely not when you're like 12 just because Dad thinks he could have made the Big Leagues with a bit more training.

Why would you rely on the government to educate your children?

I would home-school my kids, and they'd be better off for it

 

[Neutrinos]

I can’t help your lack of patience, nor your naive understanding of what it’s like to attempt a college-level biochemistry class after years of blowing off math and science.

The path to a medical degree is brutally difficult for people who put 100% of their eggs in the academic basket from an early age. Why do you think doctors make so much money? Because any average person can just flip a switch and become one whenever they feel like it?

So, you think if someone doesn't enroll in college or university at 18, that's it, they'll never get an education?

Wannabe pro athletes who "wash out" aren't in their 40's, they're in their early 20's, or even late teens, but according to you, any attempts at a diploma at that point would be in vain?

And I'm not sure why you've been so focused on medical school (I only used that as an example because you said something about becoming a surgeon). There's law school, or they could become an astrophysicist, or maybe just get a degree in business, or become a teacher, or go to a trades school, etc. etc. etc.

Millions of people have stumbled out of the gate after high school, and needed several years before figuring out their life's direction

 

[jetsmooseice]

I feel like this is a good time to bring up Randy Gregg who has the brag-worthy achievement of winning 5 Stanley Cups for his hometown Oilers before retiring from hockey and becoming a physician in Edmonton. Unreal.

But I do agree with Neutrinos in that there is an awful lot of room between "never going to university" and "becoming a surgeon". Not everyone can do the latter. There is no shame in getting an arts degree or a commerce degree or whatever and heading off to the working world.

Also, assuming a kid is reasonably diligent with their studies and learning habits there is no reason they couldn't postpone their tertiary education for a few years while pursuing high level hockey. I completed a professional degree and there was one guy in my program who did exactly that... he spent years playing pro hockey including a handful of games in the NHL before going to university and establishing himself in a successful professional career. I realize that not everyone can pull that off, but then, not everyone can pull off going to university at 18 and finish a degree program either.

 

[Thallis]

I feel like this is a good time to bring up Randy Gregg who has the brag-worthy achievement of winning 5 Stanley Cups for his hometown Oilers before retiring from hockey and becoming a physician in Edmonton. Unreal.

But I do agree with Neutrinos in that there is an awful lot of room between "never going to university" and "becoming a surgeon". Not everyone can do the latter. There is no shame in getting an arts degree or a commerce degree or whatever and heading off to the working world.

Also, assuming a kid is reasonably diligent with their studies and learning habits there is no reason they couldn't postpone their tertiary education for a few years while pursuing high level hockey. I completed a professional degree and there was one guy in my program who did exactly that... he spent years playing pro hockey including a handful of games in the NHL before going to university and establishing himself in a successful professional career. I realize that not everyone can pull that off, but then, not everyone can pull off going to university at 18 and finish a degree program either.

Postponing college is absolutely reasonable if you're at a high enough level of play to make it worth it (or frankly, if you just don't think you're ready for college yet). The problem is the original suggestion heavily implied taking a kid out of high school because they're a good player, which is bonkers.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Postponing college is absolutely reasonable if you're at a high enough level of play to make it worth it (or frankly, if you just don't think you're ready for college yet). The problem is the original suggestion heavily implied taking a kid out of high school because they're a good player, which is bonkers.

Isn't that typically what major junior players are doing? I was under the impression that most took a light course load and didn't graduate "on time" at 18. Or do I have that wrong?

 

[Thallis]

Isn't that typically what major junior players are doing? I was under the impression that most took a light course load and didn't graduate "on time" at 18. Or do I have that wrong?

My impression was that they're meant to be attending high school and graduating, but I'm not entirely familiar with the way the system works in regards to that. Even then, that's a far cry from dropping out.

 

[Yukon Joe]

My impression was that they're meant to be attending high school and graduating, but I'm not entirely familiar with the way the system works in regards to that. Even then, that's a far cry from dropping out.

Even at a CHL level, players attend high school and are expected to graduate on time. They're probably doing nothing more than the minimum, but nobody is asking 16-17 year olds to drop out of high school to pursue hockey.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Even at a CHL level, players attend high school and are expected to graduate on time. They're probably doing nothing more than the minimum, but nobody is asking 16-17 year olds to drop out of high school to pursue hockey.

I wasn't thinking they dropped out of school so much as they possibly slowed down their pace a bit? Must be tough to carry a full load of classes when you have games, practices, training and long bus trips every week.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Isn't that typically what major junior players are doing? I was under the impression that most took a light course load and didn't graduate "on time" at 18. Or do I have that wrong?

The Major Junior kids graduate on time and everything is done to keep them "on track" for the education package so that they can pursue that if they don't turn professional (watch any CHL game and they will have like 50 commercials about their education package, lol).

The ones that have already graduated sort of have the choice what to do, but many will take college courses, albeit not a full workload.

 

[TLEH]

Wow. Some of the most delusional shit I have ever heard.

 

[Neutrinos]

Postponing college is absolutely reasonable if you're at a high enough level of play to make it worth it (or frankly, if you just don't think you're ready for college yet). The problem is the original suggestion heavily implied taking a kid out of high school because they're a good player, which is bonkers.

I never suggested the child drop out of high school

I said I wouldn't have my child sitting at a desk for 6 hours a day doing pointless assignments that will have zero value to them later in life when that time could be better spent working towards their dream of becoming a pro athlete. Oh, and that training would begin well before they reached the age of a high schooler

You think it's bonkers to give your child every advantage possible to achieve their dream?

I think it's bonkers that I spent hours of my youth practicing cursive in a classroom instead spending that time in a batting cage

 

[Golden_Jet]

I never suggested the child drop out of high school

I said I wouldn't have my child sitting at a desk for 6 hours a day doing pointless assignments that will have zero value to them later in life when that time could be better spent working towards their dream of becoming a pro athlete. Oh, and that training would begin well before they reached high school

You think it's bonkers to give your child every advantage possible to achieving their dream?

I think it's bonkers that I spent hours of my youth practicing cursive in a classroom instead spending that time in a batting cage

So if child isn’t in school 6 hours a day, and you’re not suggesting leaving high school, wheres the kid going to school.?
That’s a crazy idea to leave school.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Guys, Neutrinos is trolling you.

First or all kids don't have to sit in a desk 6 hours per day". I know my one kid is attending a hockey program at school, which has him on the ice 2-3 days per week, plus extra dryland training. But he's damn well still going to school, sitting in a desk, doing his "Three Rs" and the like! Hockey Academy kids are still going to school. Major junior kids - they miss a lot of school but the team has tutors to make sure they stay on top of their school work.

The idea someone is going to home school their kid just to avoid "pointless assignments" in favour or training in a sport is just stupid. No athlete, no matter the level, trains 8+ hours per day. There's always time for schoolwork during the week.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So, you think if someone doesn't enroll in college or university at 18, that's it, they'll never get an education?

Did I say that?

What I said was that someone who postpones their education by a substantial amount of time — you originally suggested going back in their 40s — is very very likely to pay a massive economic price for that choice. And that is absolutely true.

It’s one thing to take a gap year so that you can make an informed, unrushed, measured decision about your future. But postponing by 5-10-20 years and going back as an adult student has serious consequences. Unless an athlete is at the absolute peak of the sport for his age range, it is almost certain to be a losing bet in the long run.

Wannabe pro athletes who "wash out" aren't in their 40's, they're in their early 20's, or even late teens, but according to you, any attempts at a diploma at that point would be in vain?

See above.

And I'm not sure why you've been so focused on medical school (I only used that as an example because you said something about becoming a surgeon). There's law school, or they could become an astrophysicist, or maybe just get a degree in business, or become a teacher, or go to a trades school, etc. etc. etc.

This all started with your assertion that there is only one window of time to become a successful athlete, whereas one can always go back to school and embark on a successful career later in life. You used a medical degree as an example.

I’m here to tell you, there actually IS a window of time when you can realistically prepare to become a top level surgeon or lawyer or astrophysicist. That window starts effectively in elementary school but certainly in middle school, and requires serious academic investment with a strong work ethic throughout high school, college, graduate school, and residency/postdoc/etc. The idea that a person can blow off that developmental period and just “pick up” later and go on to be successful in those fields is straight nonsense. It’s like saying they can blow off athletics till they’re 30 and then just decide to become a professional — that was my original comment on the topic.

Millions of people have stumbled out of the gate after high school, and needed several years before figuring out their life's direction

Of course, but there’s a difference between “stumbling” and then figuring it out, versus deliberately choosing to end up in that situation. That choice most definitely does carry a steep cost for all but the upper 0.01% of athletic hopefuls.

But I do agree with Neutrinos in that there is an awful lot of room between "never going to university" and "becoming a surgeon". Not everyone can do the latter. There is no shame in getting an arts degree or a commerce degree or whatever and heading off to the working world.

Also, assuming a kid is reasonably diligent with their studies and learning habits there is no reason they couldn't postpone their tertiary education for a few years while pursuing high level hockey. I completed a professional degree and there was one guy in my program who did exactly that... he spent years playing pro hockey including a handful of games in the NHL before going to university and establishing himself in a successful professional career. I realize that not everyone can pull that off, but then, not everyone can pull off going to university at 18 and finish a degree program either.

Sure, but you’re talking about people working ordinary middle class professional jobs. That’s not the analog to making it as an NHL player.

NHL players are the 0.01% hockey, some of them getting paid millions a year. Surgeons are the 0.01% of medicine, some of them getting paid millions a year. That’s the functional analogy.

What is the hockey analog to a physician? If we say physicians sit in something like the 90th percentile of medical workers — who is in the 90th percentile of adult hockey players? Pretty sure it’s A-level beer leaguers, no? There’s an extremely stark economic difference between being a physician and a good beer league hockey player…

Basically, it’s fine to shoot for being a surgeon and end up being a physician. It’s not so fine to stake your future on being an NHL’er, and end up being a beer league MVP.

 

[Neutrinos]

Did I say that?

What I said was that someone who postpones their education by a substantial amount of time — you originally suggested going back in their 40s — is very very likely to pay a massive economic price for that choice. And that is absolutely true.

It’s one thing to take a gap year so that you can make an informed, unrushed, measured decision about your future. But postponing by 5-10-20 years and going back as an adult student has serious consequences. Unless an athlete is at the absolute peak of the sport for his age range, it is almost certain to be a losing bet in the long run.



See above.



This all started with your assertion that there is only one window of time to become a successful athlete, whereas one can always go back to school and embark on a successful career later in life. You used a medical degree as an example.

I’m here to tell you, there actually IS a window of time when you can realistically prepare to become a top level surgeon or lawyer or astrophysicist. That window starts effectively in elementary school but certainly in middle school, and requires serious academic investment with a strong work ethic throughout high school, college, graduate school, and residency/postdoc/etc. The idea that a person can blow off that developmental period and just “pick up” later and go on to be successful in those fields is straight nonsense. It’s like saying they can blow off athletics till they’re 30 and then just decide to become a professional — that was my original comment on the topic.




Of course, but there’s a difference between “stumbling” and then figuring it out, versus deliberately choosing to end up in that situation. That choice most definitely does carry a steep cost for all but the upper 0.01% of athletic hopefuls.

I just said 40 years of age to show it's possible to pursue an education later in life

And why would it be a major financial burden? Again, you're dismissing all the other options such as a trades school, or community college that wouldn't present that issue

Also, the break from pursuing education to pursue athletics is based on the assumption that the child is on track to achieve their long term goal. If at some point it becomes obvious that they don't have the skill to make it as a pro, then the plan changes

 

[Neutrinos]

"Data from Statistics Canada shows that in 1992, 471 students over the age of 50 enrolled in full-time PhDs. By 2015, that grew to some 2,430, which reflects a "lifelong learning" narrative emerging within post-secondary education in Canada"

-----------

"After a troubled relationship with high school, Armstrong turned to bartending and exotic dancing to support her two children as a single mother.

But when her oldest son went off to university, it sparked a desire to learn again.

So she enrolled in an undergraduate program, even sharing classes with some of her son's friends.

Now, at the age of 44, she's a PhD student in applied linguistics at Carleton University, researching sexual harassment in the hospitality industry."

-----------

"At 63 years old, he is a first-year PhD student in British history at York University."

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sunday/the-sunday-edition-october-14-2018-1.4858401/aren-t-you-too-old-for-that-the-late-life-plunge-into-a-phd-1.4858402

@tarheelhockey
Can you give just one example of someone who successfully pursued their professional athletic career after the age of 40?

 

[tarheelhockey]

"Data from Statistics Canada shows that in 1992, 471 students over the age of 50 enrolled in full-time PhDs. By 2015, that grew to some 2,430, which reflects a "lifelong learning" narrative emerging within post-secondary education in Canada"

-----------

"After a troubled relationship with high school, Armstrong turned to bartending and exotic dancing to support her two children as a single mother.

But when her oldest son went off to university, it sparked a desire to learn again.

So she enrolled in an undergraduate program, even sharing classes with some of her son's friends.

Now, at the age of 44, she's a PhD student in applied linguistics at Carleton University, researching sexual harassment in the hospitality industry."

-----------

"At 63 years old, he is a first-year PhD student in British history at York University."

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sunday/the-sunday-edition-october-14-2018-1.4858401/aren-t-you-too-old-for-that-the-late-life-plunge-into-a-phd-1.4858402

@tarheelhockey
Can you give just one example of someone who successfully pursued their professional athletic career after the age of 40?

I’m sorry, are you saying these people are equivalent to the “NHL players” of their field because they’ve enrolled as Ph.D. students?

Surely you understand that finally getting around to that long-delayed history degree after retirement is not at all the same thing as being a top-tier professionally renowned historian?

I just said 40 years of age to show it's possible to pursue an education later in life

And why would it be a major financial burden? Again, you're dismissing all the other options such as a trades school, or community college that wouldn't present that issue

Also, the break from pursuing education to pursue athletics is based on the assumption that the child is on track to achieve their long term goal. If at some point it becomes obvious that they don't have the skill to make it as a pro, then the plan changes

The issue is that you’re missing the part where the delay comes at a massive cost. No different in athletics than in other career tracks. If you’re 40 and just now going to trade school, you’re missing 20+ years of applied experience relative to the guy who went to trade school as a teenager. Your pay rate and responsibilities will reflect that.

 

[Neutrinos]

I’m sorry, are you saying these people are equivalent to the “NHL players” of their field because they’ve enrolled as Ph.D. students?

Surely you understand that finally getting around to that long-delayed history degree after retirement is not at all the same thing as being a top-tier professionally renowned historian?



The issue is that you’re missing the part where the delay comes at a massive cost. No different in athletics than in other career tracks. If you’re 40 and just now going to trade school, you’re missing 20+ years of applied experience relative to the guy who went to trade school as a teenager. Your pay rate and responsibilities will reflect that.

First off, apology accepted

Secondly, how is it not obvious at this point what I'm saying?

You keep getting stuck on the 40 years of age thing, but as I've already pointed out in post #33... 'Wannabe pro athletes who "wash out" aren't in their 40's, they're in their early 20's, or even late teens'

There is no window that closes to get a PhD, as I've shown with the article I posted in my previous message, but there is a window for pursuing a career as a professional athlete, hence why you haven't named one who successfully accomplished that goal after the age of 40

 

[tarheelhockey]

First off, apology accepted

Secondly, how is it not obvious at this point what I'm saying?

You keep getting stuck on the 40 years of age thing, but as I've already pointed out in post #33... 'Wannabe pro athletes who "wash out" aren't in their 40's, they're in their early 20's, or even late teens'

There is no window that closes to get a PhD, as I've shown with the article I posted in my previous message, but there is a window for pursuing a career as a professional athlete, hence why you haven't named one who successfully accomplished that goal after the age of 40

Are you being serious right now?

You realize that a student is not the same someone in a professional career, right? Never mind being successful as a professional, they are not a professional period.

You’re literally comparing amateurs to professionals right now. It makes no sense at all. God help anyone who thinks they can get a Ph.D. at 60 to embark on a new career.