Your Wildly Outrageous (History of) Hockey Opinions...

DitchMarner

It's time.
Jul 21, 2017
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I guess my take is - I don't care who the best team is, I care about the team that wins.

What you say is somewhat true, but also... I don't care?


On the other side of that, my take is - playoff performance (not results) should matter *a lot* more in player evaluations than they currently do around here. This is to the benefit of some and the massive detriment of others, but sample size be damned, showing up with the Cup on the line means a lot more to me than scoring 4 points against the Sharks in January.

I'm the same way.

Even though my team never wins jack all, I care more about the story of winning four playoff rounds than about which team is the quote unquote "best' in a given year. If an underdog team wins, that makes things more interesting. And yes, I know luck if often involved in winning the Cup. I'd say more fans care more about which team was able to gut it out and get the job done in an elimination tournament than about which GM assembled the best roster.
 
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MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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I wouldnt call it a belief but more a suspicion that there is "scripting" going on behind the scenes.

Probably a wildly outrageous enough for a thread like this.
Yes specially in a sport like hockey

1) seem harder than some other sport for referee to impact games:
Home-Team-Winning-Percentage-3-e1480352685625.jpg


And you have the Blues winning cups out of nowhere, when Toronto seem to never do, lottery winners making little sense to the point they change the rules all the times because random lead to bad result.

At least with the Lakers conspiracy, you can understand why, or the Patrick Ewing in NY, for the nhl it is hard to explain why the winners of the McDavid-Crosby lottery would have been those franchise and if it is scripted why the Leafs, by far the biggest market with the most power did not reach the cup final in forever.

NFL is openly heavily scripted because of the 17 games schedule, where the superbowl occur and we can doubt that there a lot of in secret scripting, betting being such a giant industry that you risk a lot by messing with result of games.

Basketball seem to be the one where it is both giant referring part of the game, fully accepted that it is a giant part of who win (look how big home court advantage, while the sport has very little to absolutely no reason for it to be the case outside the refs when you are not Denver)

And yes, I know luck if often involved in winning the Cup. .. winning four playoff rounds
The fact they go throught 4 best of 7 series make it so that you never have unwarranted winners, usually the lucky team like Montreal in 2021 runs end before the end.
 
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norrisnick

The best...
Apr 14, 2005
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If you have a market that basically prints money regardless of how well the team does... why let them win?

It's like spending money advertising to a demographic you've already got locked up. It's wasted money.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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If you have a market that basically prints money regardless of how well the team does... why let them win?

TV contract are somewhat national and how much attractive they are when they look at recent numbers if the most popular canadians teams did well vs not well could be one of the biggest variable there is no ?


Leafs I am sure do well versus the average team even if they miss the playoff, but the year they would win the cup versus the year they miss the playoff could be the biggest (I imagine it is by a big amount) difference in money for the club and the league as a whole.

He projects a viewership drop between 30 and 40 per cent — if not more — compared to last year.
"Simply, the product they sold to or they're going to sell to advertisers is just not worth as much."
If significantly fewer fans tune in, he said, it's likely Rogers will offer discounted ad space, while companies that have already purchased slots may try to renegotiate the terms of their contracts.


And who in the league would have the power over the Maple Leaf ? Surely they themselve and the TLM people working in the league would not be enthusiast in that script.

In the other sports the conspiracy tend to be the other way around
Ewing go to the Nicks because NY is the big market, the Lakers get pushed by the ref because it is the second biggest market and the biggest franchise, you can always make it fit either way.
 
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Vilica

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Jun 1, 2014
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A bit of a strange choice of words, could you imagine talking about much a quarterback teams scored point in any way negatively about them

That phrasing is mostly because of my work with adjusting stats, and really isn't meant to be negative at all. Look at how similar these 5 peak seasons for Lemieux and McDavid are:

% LAG%P%% LAG%P%
0.9870.1530.4500.9540.1790.472
1.0740.2190.5270.9390.1790.507
1.1610.2450.5731.1090.1800.574
1.4030.1910.4451.1180.1540.432
1.1920.1750.4281.2600.1970.471

When you aggregate it into numbers instead of percentages for these 5 years:

TotalPlayerTeamLAPlayerPlayer
GPGPGFGFPointsP%
384378125111626050.484
404378162614107910.486


Lemieux missed 26 games to McDavid's 6, but one of McDavid's years was the 56 game season, so they both played exactly 378 games (I didn't choose those seasons to match the games played, it just so happened. I tried to cherry pick the seasons where Lemieux missed the fewest games, while I selected the years where McDavid had a bigger goalscoring percentage.). Lemieux has 186 more points, but in terms of P%, they're virtually identical at 48.5%. When you look at league average for their respective years [85-86, 87-88, 88-89, 95-96, 96-97 for Lemieux; 17-18, 18-19, 20-21, 21-22, 22-23 for McDavid], it is basically a half a goal/game higher in Lemieux's era than McDavid's era. That's the reason for nearly the entire gap in raw points. Thus, the second bullet point from my original post -

  • Scoring hasn't changed appreciably in 80 years, and a player-season is a player-season, no matter when it occurred. Team goals as a percentage of league average, and player goals and points as a percentage of team goals is quite variable season-to-season, but the range in which those numbers vary is unchanged from the beginning of the NHL to the current day.
2 elite 1Cs, separated by 30-40 years, with all the differences in training, equipment, refereeing, and coaching, and they're both accruing points at the same percentage of team goals over a large sample.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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and really isn't meant to be negative at all. Look at how similar these 5 peak seasons for Lemieux and McDavid are:
But implied negativity here, not sure how otherwise one could read it.

Are they that similar for, .574 is 33% bigger than .432 has a number, a bit like calling 130 pts similar to 98 pts and once you consider you are fighting against your own excellence( the more you help your team score goals, the smaller your pts percentage become).

In that context, is 33% a giant amount, like a 150 pts vs 100 ? Not sure how to interpret it at all. What does having Jagr-Francis having one of the best even strenght offensive season of all time has your second line vs a regular mediocre top 6 should mean for your points total that year, in what way it make it less or more anything ?

Scoring hasn't changed appreciably in 80 years, and a player-season is a player-season, no matter when it occurred. Team goals as a percentage of league average, and player goals and points as a percentage of team goals is quite variable season-to-season,

To me that does not seem to hold up this simple test:

scoring change so much that it double, everyone score twice has many points.... both team goals as percentage of league and players points has percentage of team goals stay the same, yet scoring changed by a giant amount.
 

LightningStorm

Lightning/Mets/Vikings
Dec 19, 2008
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In the Eric Lindros trade, the idea that the Avalanche couldn't have traded for Patrick Roy, Ray Bourque, and Rob Blake without the other pieces acquired alongside Forsberg is extremely overblown. The Nords/Avs obviously won the trade, but not to the degree where they needed it to make some of those major additions in trades down the line.

Not sure what the HOH boards broad opinion on this is, but at their peaks, I think Belfour was better than Brodeur.
 

buffalowing88

Registered User
Aug 11, 2008
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Charlotte, NC
So it's just a coincidence that the Capitals were a lottery team when Ovechkin arrived and then went on to win the second most games in the NHL from 2005-2021 with him as the only hall of famer on the roster?

I think Ovehckin is a top 15-20 player of all-time. I think Crosby is top 10-15. It's not a large gap in terms of numbers, but it is in terms of impact.

Ovechkin made Washington a constantly good team. Crosby made Pittbsburgh a constant Cup contender.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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In the Eric Lindros trade, the idea that the Avalanche couldn't have traded for Patrick Roy, Ray Bourque, and Rob Blake without the other pieces acquired alongside Forsberg is extremely overblown. The Nords/Avs obviously won the trade, but not to the degree where they needed it to make some of those major additions in trades down the line.
i think this here at least would be a mild take, one that most would probably agree with.

They lost a lot of piece after 1996 because of the price tag(Ricci, Young, ), without Lindros trade, they just have less of them too lose, maybe not that different after those salary cuts.

One of the biggest piece was Mike ricci, they lost him for nothing on the free agency market, without him the trade already look quite mild.

They also had nothing special for Chris Simon/Leschyshyn on the restricted one. They lost Scott Young for virtually nothing (3rd round pick that turn into Lance Ward), that they could simply keep and use for those trades.

Remove Young-Ricci and Ron Hextall traded for Mark Fitzpatrick (not sure what to make for Deadmarsh for Bertuzzi in that trade, arguably a wash).

Already it look quite similar as Forsberg is not different than having Lindros when it come to the ability to move Sundin and what not.

I think you are relatively safe with a view of peak Belfour > about anyone.

Dallas did beat Roy the 2 times with him playing extremely well.
 
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Gorskyontario

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Feb 18, 2024
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If Dionne and Hawerchuk played on half decent teams(Dionne had better linemates than Hawerchuk). Both would be consensus top 20-25 players of all time.

Hawerchuk played 48 games against the Gretzky oilers. Scored 36 goals and 24 assists. With Paul Maclean and Brian Mullen as his primary linemates.
 

LightningStorm

Lightning/Mets/Vikings
Dec 19, 2008
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i think this here at least would be a mild take, one that most would probably agree with.

They lost a lot of piece after 1996 because of the price tag(Ricci, Young, ), without Lindros trade, they just have less of them too lose, not that different of piece.

One of the biggest piece was Mike ricci, they lost in for nothing on the free agency market.

They also had nothing special for Chris Simon/Leschyshyn. they lost Scott young for virtually nothing (3rd round pick, Lance Ward).

Remove Young-Ricci, Ron Hextall traded for Mark Fitzpatrick (not sure what to make for Deadmarsh for Bertuzzi in that trade).

There already very little left outside obviously Forsberg, which is not that different than having Lindros when it come to the ability to move Sundin and what not.

I think you are relatively safe with a view of peak Belfour > about anyone.

Dallas did beat Roy the 2 times with him playing extremely well.
Good point about them simply having less to lose during their 1996 cap crunch without the depth. Never thought about that angle.

The main thing I object to in terms of the Lindros trade being overrated with regards to the later trades is it overstates the importance minor pieces in those trades. It implies Thibault in the Roy trade and Deadmarsh in the Blake trade were super essential to the point that those trades don't happen without them. And the Bourque trade was so many trades removed from the Lindros trade that there's no need to go into detail about it. In fact, the Bourque trade is more related to the Sundin one.
 

The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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-- Hockey was better with the two-line offsides.

-- The Montreal Canadians are better off with more French-Canadian players (and general team culture), not less.

-- The hockey-culture thing of 1 goalie plays the whole game all the time doesn't make any sense. For about 50% of teams, it would make more sense to switch goalies in and out.

-- Ray Ferraro is a bothersome commentator because he's too intense.
 

Dingo

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Jul 13, 2018
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Adjusting Statistics. I have trouble logically reconciling that concept. Why do we do it? What is the logical and rational explanation as to why we should and how it should be done?

Using a recent example to make my point...

Kucherov just scored 144 points.
Malkin in 2012 scored 109 points, in what is a season very highly valued by most. Many might even argue it's a better season than Kucherov's.

Unless someone can rationally and logically convince me why it was more difficult and therefore more impressive for Malkin to score 109 points in 2012 than Kucherov score 144 points in 2024 - I think adjusting stats is stupid. People generally default to "everyone scored more points in 2024, so of course it was easier" - but that's not an explanation, just an observation.

Malkin had games where he scored 1 point. Or two. Or Three. Or Four. etc
Kucherov had games where he scored 1 point. or Two. or Three. Or Four. etc.
So all those game outcomes were possible in either year - Kucherov just managed to do it more often and more consistently, and ended up with a higher total. ie - better season.

I've never heard a convincing argument as to why we should adjust statistics. Especially in years that are close together like 2024 and 2012 (it's easier to rationalize 2024 vs 1982, completely different era).

And to clarify - I'm not saying I look exclusively at raw statistics when judging at player - I've been convinced that I *should* adjust, but I have trouble understanding the why, and without understanding the why I'm convinced we're not doing it right. We're too caught up in the fallacy that "well - all 20 top scorers scored at 1.2x rate in year X vs year Y, so we should adjust by a factor of 1.2" - why? Maybe those top 20 scorers just had a better year.
As long as Panarin and Pasta are considered better, too. And as long as Blaine Stoughton and Denis Maruk are considered better goalscorers at their best than Sid, then yep.

The NHL isnt the same from year to year. This isnt comparing Usain Bolt to Carl Lewis on the same track. The track changes based on all sorts of things. If we look at sports where the track remains the same - running, swimming*, lifting AND the sport is prestigious and sought after, the best dont change that much.

*when swimming used shark suits, it sure did change... which helps illustrate what a changed variable can do.

My take - Ulf Samuelsson didnt do a damned thing wrong, and Don Cherry and Cam Neely and everyone my age including me in Canada were a bunch of sour little babies.
 

Nerowoy nora tolad

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May 9, 2018
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Would you mind elaborating what specifically makes forsberg drop in your rankings?

Cause i feel like most would have the opposite conclusion. (would be ranked higher based on eyetest) So that makes me curious.
His physical game doesnt translate at all. Almost every hit involves blatant jumping into heads, elbows, wrestling matches in the corner, all of that DPE nonsense that would lead to an ejection in about a minute nowadays. I dont consider him a dirty player on that account because that was the nature of the DPE, but I cant ever remember seeing him line a player up for a proper shoulder on shoulder hit.

His skating looks like excellent edgework, but slow footspeed. His shots all seem really weak and his clutch scoring relies on being able to bull through traffic in big games to get shots off. His puck skills are high end.

Hes a great player for that era, but I think he would struggle in any other time period.
 
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sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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I am always surprised at how much people disagree with this, but the better team loses a playoff series with decent regularity. Plenty of Stanley Cup winners were not the best team in the NHL in a given year, and people looking for the playoffs to yield the best team are missing the point.

While there's some type of truth to this, and a lot of tight series are somewhat 'coin-flips', a lot of teams pace themselves in the RS, so you can't take everything that happens over an 82 game NHL schedule as hard gospel either. I think I heard on Nick Kypreos' show the other day that Matthews had 6 hat-tricks this past RS but all 6 of them were against non-playoff teams. No wonder he dips in the post-season.

That also goes in line with me thinking Nylander was better for large chunks of the season (especially the first half).


Edit: Just looked it up, his hat-tricks this past season were against Montreal, Minnesota, Buffalo, Calgary, Anaheim and Philadelphia.
 

Vilica

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Jun 1, 2014
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But implied negativity here, not sure how otherwise one could read it.

Are they that similar for, .574 is 33% bigger than .432 has a number, a bit like calling 130 pts similar to 98 pts and once you consider you are fighting against your own excellence( the more you help your team score goals, the smaller your pts percentage become).

In that context, is 33% a giant amount, like a 150 pts vs 100 ? Not sure how to interpret it at all. What does having Jagr-Francis having one of the best even strenght offensive season of all time has your second line vs a regular mediocre top 6 should mean for your points total that year, in what way it make it less or more anything ?



To me that does not seem to hold up this simple test:

scoring change so much that it double, everyone score twice has many points.... both team goals as percentage of league and players points has percentage of team goals stay the same, yet scoring changed by a giant amount.

All the items you're pointing to are essentially randomness in a season-to-season sense. Let's go back to 2 of McDavid's seasons, 17-18 and 22-23, his age-21 and 26 seasons. He scored 108 points in the first, 153 points in the second. However, there's a few aspects of those seasons that are of note.

The first item is that the Oilers scored 187 even strength goals the first year, and 218 even strength goals the second year, yet according to h-r, McDavid was on-ice for 95 of them in each year. In fact, McDavid's even strength production was 35+49=84 in 17-18, and 39+36=75 in 22-23. His IPP dipped in the second year.

The power play is a whole other matter. Somehow McDavid was only on-ice for 22 power play goals in 17-18, of which he had 20 points. In 22-23, after they fixed the power play, that number jumped all the way to 87 goals, and McDavid had 71 points. His IPP dropped again, but the Oilers had a gigantic leap in their power play goals from 31 to 89.

Combined with a modest increase in short handed goals, the Oilers went from 229 goals in 17-18 to 325 goals in 22-23, and McDavid went from 108 to 153 points. However, 108/229=0.4716 and 153/325=0.4707. A massive amount of changes in McDavid's underlying numbers, nearly 100 more goals scored, identical P%. That's why I draw the opposite conclusion to your simple test. It simply does not matter what the scoring level is, on a percentage basis it does not change. That's why my Average VsX stat works so well, because converting to different scoring level scales to that extent.

Another way to think about it is in terms of games played. League average was 204 in 43-44, 203 in 58-59, and 211 in 03-04, and top 20 scorers were in broadly the same area, but per-game scoring levels were completely different because they played 50 games in 43-44, 70 games in 58-59 and 82 games in 03-04. A more extreme example would be the league average of 95 in 1921-22 compared to 316 in 1983-84. They only played 24 games in 21-22 versus the 80 in 83-84, but the per-82 average was virtually the same for both seasons, 324-325ish. The PPG numbers for the top 5 scorers in 21-22 extrapolate out to the same total points as the top scorers (apart from Gretzky) in 83-84, had they played 80 games instead of 24.

If league average is, to pick a number at random, 246 in an 82 game season, it's 300 in a 100 game season. You give the players of today 20 extra games to play, to reach the same scoring levels as the 80s, and the point totals start to become the same. How each player reaches that number is up to their talent, randomness, and variance. Returning to the McDavid/Lemieux peak comparison, what if instead of 384 games played over 5 seasons, McDavid had played 500 - 100 per year. To do some quick math, 1162 league average/384 games equals ~3.02/game, times 500 games equals a new league average of 1513. In that environment, the Oilers would have scored 1629 goals, and McDavid would have points on 788 of those.

TotalPlayerTeamLAPlayerPlayer
GPGPGFGFPointsP%
384378125111626050.484
404378162614107910.486
500492162915137880.484

A team GF gap of 375 and point gap of 186 disappears with the addition of 116 more games.
 

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
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If Dionne and Hawerchuk played on half decent teams(Dionne had better linemates than Hawerchuk). Both would be consensus top 20-25 players of all time.

Hawerchuk played 48 games against the Gretzky oilers. Scored 36 goals and 24 assists. With Paul Maclean and Brian Mullen as his primary linemates.

If you flipped Dionne and Lafleur, the Habs still win as much as they did and Lafleur doesn't win a thing in LA.
 

DitchMarner

It's time.
Jul 21, 2017
10,106
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Brampton, ON
His physical game doesnt translate at all. Almost every hit involves blatant jumping into heads, elbows, wrestling matches in the corner, all of that DPE nonsense that would lead to an ejection in about a minute nowadays. I dont consider him a dirty player on that account because that was the nature of the DPE, but I cant ever remember seeing him line a player up for a proper shoulder on shoulder hit.

His skating looks like excellent edgework, but slow footspeed. His shots all seem really weak and his clutch scoring relies on being able to bull through traffic in big games to get shots off. His puck skills are high end.

Hes a great player for that era, but I think he would struggle in any other time period.

Didn't he adapt his playing style for the Dead Puck Era?

I'm too young to remember young Forsberg, but I've heard he wasn't particularly physical and was a good skater. I assume he was faster than later Forsberg.

Sundin changed his style quite a bit and became bulkier and slower to tailor his game to the DPE. But he was a good scorer before and after that era as well.

I don't see why Forsberg wouldn't do well today if he toned down the physicality. Same with someone like Lindros.
 
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MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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Combined with a modest increase in short handed goals, the Oilers went from 229 goals in 17-18 to 325 goals in 22-23, and McDavid went from 108 to 153 points. However, 108/229=0.4716 and 153/325=0.4707. A massive amount of changes in McDavid's underlying numbers, nearly 100 more goals scored, identical P%. That's why I draw the opposite conclusion to your simple test. It simply does not matter what the scoring level is, on a percentage basis it does not change. That's why my Average VsX stat works so well, because converting to different scoring level scales to that extent.
But, how much of the Oilers bigger PP could be due to McDavid getting better at it, the Oilers PP percentage was abnormal that year, not a league wide phenomenom that need some explanation. What would this be telling us here ?

It seems to a bit exclude the fact teams when the elite player is scoring that much more than a good first liner replacement their team score more, their percentage is one of an inflated by them denominator, i.e. they are hurt by how much they help their team scoring.

Take the Penguins of Lemieux for example, if we take the 91-92 and 92-93 season together we have a rare case of a superstar playing a lot but missing a lot of games at the same time to have some idea of what a superstar do to a team.

The Penguins with Lemieux scored 4.64 goals a game, without Lemieux they score 3.38 goal a game (1.26 goals or 37% team offense boost).

If Lemieux has 2.2 pts per game he has 47% of his team points, but would he had added no actual real offense and scored 1.7 pts a game he would have look better scoring over 50% of his team points. Would he have been better at hockey and added more goals but in ways that do not lead to him getting points (by playing better defense, screening the goaltender and what not) he would have looked worse.
 
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Troubadour

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Feb 23, 2018
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Didn't he adapt his playing style for the Dead Puck Era?

I'm too young to remember young Forsberg, but I've heard he wasn't particularly physical and was a good skater. I assume he was faster than later Forsberg.

Sundin changed his style quite a bit and became bulkier and slower to tailor his game to the DPE. But he was a good scorer before and after that era as well.

I don't see why Forsberg wouldn't do well today if he toned down the physicality. Same with someone like Lindros.

As far as I remember, he always played a very rough, yet very skillful, very cerebral type of game. At least in the NHL.

He was an excellent and agile skater, although acceleration was not necessarily his strength. Foot injuries slowed him down a lot, but even then, he was smart enough to slow the game down and remain impactful through his outstanding puck protection, puck handling, and playmaking.

To my mind he was clearly (or pretty much) the best (or second best -- depending on the presence and age of Lemieux) center in the league for about a decade (96 -- 06). I get people preferred Lindros from say 95 till 97 and no-one would have taken Forsberg over a healthy Lemieux in 96, but Forsberg, his somewhat dubious shooting aside, was as close to a perfect player as one could get.
 

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