Your Wildly Outrageous (History of) Hockey Opinions...

mrhockey193195

Registered User
Nov 14, 2006
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I don't have any outrageous or wild hockey opinions. On an unrelated note there's a stage in Super Mario World to SNES named Outrageous but when I was a kid I pronounced it otra-geus.

I don't know if this is outrageous, but I prefer multifaceted goalscoring in front of just standing around sniping, meaning I would prefer guys like Lemieux and Bure in front of Ovechkin and Brett Hull, but to me that's more in line with common sense and doesn't seem wild.
My introduction to hockey as a young kid was through video games. Very specifically, NHLPA 1993 on SNES (the one where they had a license with the PA but not the NHL, so real players were in the game but no team names - e.g., the Islanders were listed as “Long Island”). Seven year old me was not great with reading or pronunciation, so for a good year I thought Ray Bourque’s name was pronounced “Ray Bouquet”. I maintain that it’s a much cooler name to this day.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,955
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I'm too young to remember young Forsberg, but I've heard he wasn't particularly physical and was a good skater. I assume he was faster than later Forsberg.

Forsberg was always Forsberg, he never really changed. His skating was okay and he wasn't slow but he wasn't particularly speedy either, though his puck control made him fairly speedy and/or agile with the puck in comparison to most other players.

Forsberg was fairly physical early on as well, though not someone who skated around throwing a lot of hits (like say Dustin Brown or something) because that's just not how hockey was played in Europe at the time. He was always very grumpy though. A classic is from the 94 SEL finals where MoDo lost in 5 games (after being up 2-0) and he said in a post game televised interview (all red in the face) that he wanted to beat up the referee because he gave Malmö too many PPs.

foppaborje3.jpg
 

mrhockey193195

Registered User
Nov 14, 2006
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Denver, CO
I think until the playoff series in '94 against Pittsburgh, I thought the Capitals goalie was Don "BYORP" :laugh:

That's what happens when you go to a public school where learning even a first language is optional...
I got lucky with Beaupre. Guessed the right pronunciation on day 1, and never looked back. :laugh:
 

Yozhik v tumane

Registered User
Jan 2, 2019
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On the topic of Forsberg’s physicality, I heard an interview recently where he was asked about where he got the reverse hit from. As he recalled, he first experienced being on the other end of one during the world juniors. He’d gone in for a check on a “big Russian guy”, and unexpectedly was leveled. From then on, he figured that if he could time it right and catch his checkers off guard with the pushback, they’ll go down just like he had.
 
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Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
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Steve Shutt and Bill Barber are in the HHOF because they won cups and played for popular teams.

On the contrary, Rick Martin has yet to get the call because he played for Buffalo.

Similarly, Guy Carbonneau is in because he was a Hab and captained the team for a while. There is no reason he should be in and not Lehtinen + Brind'Amour.

I think Ovehckin is a top 15-20 player of all-time. I think Crosby is top 10-15. It's not a large gap in terms of numbers, but it is in terms of impact.

Ovechkin made Washington a constantly good team. Crosby made Pittbsburgh a constant Cup contender.

Ovechkin made Washington a cup contender. Yes, they didn't get it done except for 2018, but they were consistently one of the leagues best teams before the playoff started, including three seasons where they won the Presidents Trophy.
 
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WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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The demi-god like status for Gretzky and Lemieux gets a little eye-rolling, where it is assumed (1) no player in history would ever win an award while either was in the League, (2) anyone who didn't win any awards while they were in the League gets a pass and a residual boost (especially when you do the math and realize these other guys that would be discussed in context weren't exactly close to winning awards in a bunch of other seasons if not for blocked, and (3) the fact that they were so close to each other in terms of proximate age gives some more historical context more so than just being once in a century players.

This will likely get taken the wrong way and into a strawmanned belief of "dae think every player today was better than Gretzky??" which isn't my intent, fwiw.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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Oh I got one - Bobby Orrs Norris trophies are in the weakest era for Dmen in league history. That's not to say his Norris's are weak - but boosting the other Dmen in this era (basically Brad Park) for having to play in his shadow gives them more credit than they deserve.
 

tabness

GUCCY 🇵🇸
Apr 4, 2014
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I don't think this is as much an issue with hockey fans in general (although we are in a more data driven cultural milieu in general nowadays than in the past) but here on HF and this section, I feel there is way too much emphasis placed on awards voting and stats, to the point it somewhat gatekeeps the window of reasonable opinions to hold.
 
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MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
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, (2) anyone who didn't win any awards while they were in the League gets a pass and a residual boost (especially when you do the math and realize these other guys that would be discussed in context weren't exactly close to winning awards in a bunch of other seasons if not for blocked,
Sometime one could think Yzerman would have been a 3 art ross winner if not of Lemieux-Gretzky.

Lost fair and square to a Gretzky less Messier, Lafontaine-Oates, only 1989....

Steve Shutt and Bill Barber are in the HHOF because they won cups and played for popular teams.

On the contrary, Rick Martin has yet to get the call because he played for Buffalo.

Similarly, Guy Carbonneau is in because he was a Hab and captained the team for a while. There is no reason he should be in and not Lehtinen + Brind'Amour.
That sound quite mild, my very mild take about the first sentence having a bias toward people that won a lot, were extremely famous and popular because they played for popular teams (so more people visiting the hall that will care and having marking hockey history more than perhaps more talented player that marked nobody) that won a lot seem to be one of the best possible bias to have.

Being in the Hall because you won a lot of cups > compiled arbitrary round numbers > having a lot of friend in the golf club/press.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
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Oh I got one - Bobby Orrs Norris trophies are in the weakest era for Dmen in league history. That's not to say his Norris's are weak - but boosting the other Dmen in this era (basically Brad Park) for having to play in his shadow gives them more credit than they deserve.
This is probably pretty good. It also might muddy (?) or vanilla-ize (?) the players below Orr because Orr won so convincingly. Like, there was no Bourque sometimes, Lidstrom sometimes, this guy another time...

It was Orr by a hundred miles, then Orr by a thousand miles, and then Orr by a million miles...and then Orr ****** off. Didn't fade away...didn't lose his fast ball for a couple years...just Irish goodbyed...

But you bring up a good point...and the whole idea that there's this automatic assumption that, say, a 1st Team Center nod is worth as much as a 1st Team Left Wing nod...or, that a 1st Team LW nod is worth as much as a 6th place C finish depending on the year...is probably worth challenging.
 

DitchMarner

It's time.
Jul 21, 2017
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I've written extensively about plus/minus in the past. I think it should be a context stat. I don't like when people just look at the plus/minus ratings of two players on different teams/playing in different contexts/different eras and act as if the fact that one is higher has some sort of meaning.

But this post isn't about plus/minus; it's about using plus/minus in conjunction with PP and Even Strength scoring...

If two guys have similar plus/minus ratings and similar points totals in the same season and one has most of his points at Even Strength (let's say about 78%) and the other has much closer to a 50/50 split between ES and PP points, then without any further information provided, I would be strongly inclined to prefer the season of the player who scored a much greater percentage of his points on the Power Play!

Let's use an example of a recent season where a player did a lot of damage on the PP: I think Connor McDavid provided absolutely ludicrous value to his team by contributing to a +22 rating (note that I said contributing to; plus/minus isn't an entirely individualistic stat) and also directly scoring 71 Power Play points.

If he had had the same plus/minus and scoring totals that he actually had but had scored something like 103 Even Strength points and 43 Power Play points (to go along with 7 SHP), I think he would have contributed significantly less value to his team overall (still would have been a hell of a season).
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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Feel it is clear the team would have a better season, but I am not sure it tell us if it is because of his play (or the team was better at preventing goals at even strength making it possible to have a similar +/- with lesser offense for reason that has little to do with him), for sure not outrageous and reasonable idea too.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,396
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I have a few wildly outrageous takes because i played it, was a newspaper reporter covering it (okay, only five months on that beat, but accredited! I interviewed a lot of NHLers), watched it for nearly a half century and am getting old enough to not gaf.

1. Lidstrom is nowhere near Bourque in terms of talent and actually below Pronger. I die on that hill.

2. Howe and Gretzky deserve a tier above anybody. Yes, even Orr. 9 & 99. That should be tattooed on every hockey fan's heart or at least thoughts. They are everything. Full stop. (Even if we say f u Detroit).

3. Vernon is the worst HHOFer i've ever seen.

I have stated each of these before, but not on an honestly "outrageous opinion" thread. I truly believe it.
 

Vilica

Registered User
Jun 1, 2014
448
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But, how much of the Oilers bigger PP could be due to McDavid getting better at it, the Oilers PP percentage was abnormal that year, not a league wide phenomenom that need some explanation. What would this be telling us here ?

It seems to a bit exclude the fact teams when the elite player is scoring that much more than a good first liner replacement their team score more, their percentage is one of an inflated by them denominator, i.e. they are hurt by how much they help their team scoring.

Take the Penguins of Lemieux for example, if we take the 91-92 and 92-93 season together we have a rare case of a superstar playing a lot but missing a lot of games at the same time to have some idea of what a superstar do to a team.

The Penguins with Lemieux scored 4.64 goals a game, without Lemieux they score 3.38 goal a game (1.26 goals or 37% team offense boost).

If Lemieux has 2.2 pts per game he has 47% of his team points, but would he had added no actual real offense and scored 1.7 pts a game he would have look better scoring over 50% of his team points. Would he have been better at hockey and added more goals but in ways that do not lead to him getting points (by playing better defense, screening the goaltender and what not) he would have looked worse.
Instead of thinking of it as PPG, think of it as offensive share. Let's take that 91-92 Penguins team, and break down their 80 games into 4 chunks of 20.

GamesGFGF/GGAGA/G
10/4/9111/18/9120793.95804
11/20/911/2/92201075.35693.45
1/4/922/22/9220693.45804
2/25/924/16/9220884.4793.95
Total803434.293083.85

For the season, they averaged 4.29 goals per game, but were widely variable in each 20 game segment. Now let's look at their 2 highest scorers, Lemieux and Stevens and their point totals in each of those segments. Stevens played all the games, while Lemieux missed 16 games. Here are the numbers:

GamesGoalsAssistsPointsPPGGFP%GF/G
10/4/9111/18/9117131629720.403L P4.24
10/4/9111/18/91171316291.71790.367L A
10/4/9111/18/91201518331.65790.418S3.95
11/20/911/2/92201530452.251070.421L A5.35
11/20/911/2/92201521361.801070.336S5.35
1/4/922/22/921011314330.424L P3.30
1/4/922/22/9210113141.40690.203L A
1/4/922/22/9220914231.15690.333S3.45
2/25/924/16/9217152843770.558L P4.53
2/25/924/16/92171528432.53880.489L A
2/25/924/16/92201516311.55880.352S4.40
6444871312890.453L P4.52
6444871312.053430.382L A
8054691231.543430.359S4.29

I've divided Lemieux chunks into 2 lines, L P and L A, standing for Lemieux Precise and Lemieux Actual. The Precise lines have removed the goals for totals from the game Lemieux missed in each chunk, while the Actual lines are the totals in full. As Stevens missed no games, his Precise and Actual totals are the same. The first segment I want to point to is the 2nd and 3rd ones - Pittsburgh went from averaging 5.35 goals/game to 3.45 goals/game, Lemieux's PPG dropped by 2.25 to 1.40 while Stevens PPG dropped from 1.8 to 1.15, yet in terms of P%, for both players, it is virtually identical at 42% and 33%. That's why I'm saying scoring levels don't matter. A player's offensive share tends to remain his offensive share, regardless of how few or how many goals his team scores.

Another segment of note is to compare Lemieux's first 3 precise chunks to his final one. He's cruising along at that 42% range, and suddenly he spikes to 56%. I'm guessing if we had his advanced stats for on-ice shooting percentage and IPP for both even strength and power play, that segment would be much higher than the other 3. Without them, it just is a big spike in his counting stats that we have to acknowledge.

The contention that I think you're having is that you end up with all this noise surrounding point totals, and you're trying to derive some sort of signal. Spikes are essentially just random, and as likely to be variance as they are player skill. I will make an admission though, you are somewhat on the right track when you say higher scoring leads to a lower P% - it seems that on teams way above league average (30% or more), it is less likely that top scorers hit that 45-50% P% threshold, it tends to be more in that 35-40% range. Again though, we're talking about a sample of maybe 75 player-seasons since WW2. It might be as simple as in a 5-2 game in the 3rd period, Gretzky got a regular shift while Esposito did not. Picking out that trend from all the noise is imputing way too much weight to a tiny sample.

[Also, because I'm sort of theorycrafting on the fly, I can admit that I'm surprised how neatly the 91-92 season fit into my hypothesis. I basically wanted to compare Stevens and Lemieux, hit on using 20 game chunks, worked out the stats, and came up with this presentation. I know my hypothesis is theoretically sound, but being able to use almost any sample to illustrate my thesis is really helpful. Finally, this back and forth is also probably not the best fit for this thread, given we're arguing more about statistical interpretations rather than hot takes.]

[[Also also, refreshing this thread and the 300 points Gretzky annoys me in a way no other hot take does, because it is just mathematically wrong. We have 100 years of data, including 80s Gretzky, that shows players top out at 50% P%. A team will not score 600 goals in an 82 game season.]]
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,955
6,385
This isn't an outrageous or wild opinion but perhaps one that goes somewhat against the HOH grain, and that is that there's just way too much over-emphasis on various player rankings on here. Like, "does this or that player rank 95th or 105th all-time blah blah" stuff in absurdum, which I think makes a lot of discussions not only somewhat of an echo-chamber (or an empty can) but at times even a borderline insufferable echo-chamber/empty can.

Like, if someone ranks 95th or 105th, who really gives a shit, IMO. And who's even to say where the best methodology lies. And why is it even important. I don't get it.

I've participated in a few ranking projects in the past, but it was always in search of good discussions, never with an end goal to find the holy statistical grail.
 
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The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
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3. Vernon is the worst HHOFer i've ever seen.
I'm kind of torn with Vernon, Kevin Lowe, and Phil Housley.

This isn't an outrageous or wild opinion but perhaps one that goes somewhat against the HOH grain, and that is that there's just way too much over-emphasis on various player rankings on here. Like, "does this or that player rank 95th or 105th all-time blah blah" stuff in absurdum, which I think makes a lot of discussions not only somewhat of an echo-chamber (or an empty can) but at times even a borderline insufferable echo-chamber/empty can.
@sr edler I'm in total agreement with you! (Rare occurrence.)

I just take player ranking things as fun. Sometimes I contribute to the chat, sometimes I don't. (I don't do those all-time ranking projects, because how can I rank Eddie Shore against Leon Draisaitl or whoever? It's just weird.)

But I agree that people getting bent out of shape over player rankings is pretty silly. At the end of our day, each of our subjective opinions on that is utterly and completely meaningless.
 
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