2023-24 Frank J. Selke Trophy finalists: Aleksander Barkov, Auston Matthews, Jordan Staal | Winner: Aleksander Barkov

[ijuka]

Top 10 Selke profile looks like this.

At some point, they should just stop pretending that Selke is for defense and just make it a trophy for the best offensive forward instead.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Should have been Matthews.
Well, he‘ll get the Conn Smythe then…

No he shouldn’t the correct player won.

Just look at first place votes Barkov 165
Matthew’s 2
All of the 40 players not named Barkov, who got Selke votes, had a total of 28 first place votes total between the 40.

It was a landslide.

 

[Leaf Fans]

So we're at the point where we need to reward the Leafs for hypotheticals, as opposed to things they actually accomplish.


Matthews could be great defensively. He's just not used that way..... What an absolute joke.

We don't have to reward Leafs for anything. If anyone awards Leaf players, it will be the, PHWA or the NHLPA or some other group. I suppose you can create your own award like Mark Messier? It is the same for every. NHL player.

 

[Divine]

So we're at the point where we need to reward the Leafs for hypotheticals, as opposed to things they actually accomplish.


Matthews could be great defensively. He's just not used that way..... What an absolute joke.

Matthews kills penalties. He's not one of the stars I was talking about that don't.

 

[pcruz]

is matthews 2-way game really that good? beast goal scorer ofc

It is.

His underlying numbers have never been augmented by having a great goaltender either.

The common thing between Kopitar, Bergeron, Barkov:

Vezina winning goalies.


Whereas Matthews has had this list of goalies backstopping his team the last 3 seasons:

Joseph Woll for a few games before getting injured for almost the whole season.
Ilya Samsonov who was so bad the team had to send him to the minors to NOT play.
Martin Jones who cleared waivers to start the season.
Hildeby
Petr Mrazek
Matt Murray
Erik Kallgren
Jack Campbell


The Maple Leafs ended this past season with a .898 Save %.
To put that into perspective, the San Jose Sharks ended the season with a .892 Save %, Anaheim with .894 Save %, and Chicago with .897 Save %.


Toronto as late as April, was within 4 points of home ice advantage in the 1st round of the playoffs.
The main reason they were in the same stratosphere as Florida and Boston was the unbelievable 2 way play from Auston.

Marner missed 20 games this year, and Nylander started off line the Flash, and right around the time he signed his ludicrous extension, he disappeared.

For a line that never had any semblance of consistency, the 1st line of the Leafs absolutely dominated all year long.
Matthews and Marner played together for 55 games or so, and they had 7 or 8 different players on the Left Wing.
Then, when Marner got injured, Max Domi and Tyler Bertuzzi were moved to the 1st line and it just continued to dominate at both ends of the ice.

Yes, the defensive specialists that are Domi and Bertuzzi.

 

[jonlin]

The common thing between Kopitar, Bergeron, Barkov:

Vezina winning goalies.

^Top10 in stupidest posts seen on HF! Congrats! So, Bergeron, Kopitar and Barkov are only considered 2-way players because of the goalies? I guess Matthews would win every year if he had the same ones?

 

[Zbynek]

Top 10 Selke profile looks like this.

At some point, they should just stop pretending that Selke is for defense and just make it a trophy for the best offensive forward instead.

Or you could actually watch the games instead of relying on Twitter charts to make your assessments.

 

[pb1300]

It is.

His underlying numbers have never been augmented by having a great goaltender either.

The common thing between Kopitar, Bergeron, Barkov:

Vezina winning goalies.


Whereas Matthews has had this list of goalies backstopping his team the last 3 seasons:

Joseph Woll for a few games before getting injured for almost the whole season.
Ilya Samsonov who was so bad the team had to send him to the minors to NOT play.
Martin Jones who cleared waivers to start the season.
Hildeby
Petr Mrazek
Matt Murray
Erik Kallgren
Jack Campbell


The Maple Leafs ended this past season with a .898 Save %.
To put that into perspective, the San Jose Sharks ended the season with a .892 Save %, Anaheim with .894 Save %, and Chicago with .897 Save %.


Toronto as late as April, was within 4 points of home ice advantage in the 1st round of the playoffs.
The main reason they were in the same stratosphere as Florida and Boston was the unbelievable 2 way play from Auston.

Marner missed 20 games this year, and Nylander started off line the Flash, and right around the time he signed his ludicrous extension, he disappeared.

For a line that never had any semblance of consistency, the 1st line of the Leafs absolutely dominated all year long.
Matthews and Marner played together for 55 games or so, and they had 7 or 8 different players on the Left Wing.
Then, when Marner got injured, Max Domi and Tyler Bertuzzi were moved to the 1st line and it just continued to dominate at both ends of the ice.

Yes, the defensive specialists that are Domi and Bertuzzi.

Word words words, better goaltenders, more words.

Yes, that is why Barkov, Bergeron, and Kopitar are better defensively than Matthews.

 

[ES]

Not having Barkov in top5 should automatically mean taking the righting votes off

How clueless can these people be

One media member raised his hand:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1791983773954810140

i suppose we get the full voting listing once all awards have been announced.

 

[Reality Czech]

is matthews 2-way game really that good? beast goal scorer ofc

Let's be honest, the Selke finalists are often star players who are also solid on defense rather than the actual best defensive forwards in the league. Someone like Danault has never come close to a Selke because he doesn't have the star power.

Kind of like how the Norris goes to the best offensive defenseman who's also competent in his own end as opposed to the best at defending.

Not a slight on Barkov at all. Guys like him, Bergeron, Kopitar, ROR excel at both ends of the ice and deserve the Selke consideration.

 

[Buck Naked]

Kind of like how the Norris goes to the best offensive defenseman who's also competent in his own end as opposed to the best at defending.

Pretty clear difference in the wording of the criteria for both those awards though.

 

[ijuka]

Let's be honest, the Selke finalists are often star players who are also solid on defense rather than the actual best defensive forwards in the league. Someone like Danault has never come close to a Selke because he doesn't have the star power.

Kind of like how the Norris goes to the best offensive defenseman who's also competent in his own end as opposed to the best at defending.

Not a slight on Barkov at all. Guys like him, Bergeron, Kopitar, ROR excel at both ends of the ice and deserve the Selke consideration.

Except Norris is for the best defenseman, not differentiating between defensive or offensive defensemen.

Selke is for the best defensive forward, meaning that offensive players like Sidney Crosby should be nowhere near top 10.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

It is.

His underlying numbers have never been augmented by having a great goaltender either.

The common thing between Kopitar, Bergeron, Barkov:

Vezina winning goalies.

Not sure how a Vezina goalie is going to make Matthews stop endlessly blowing coverage in his zone or actually try harder on the defensive end of things.

 

[Reality Czech]

Pretty clear difference in the wording of the criteria for both those awards though.

This is true. They aren't that similar.

But I will stand by my Selke comment about it generally going to top line players who are also good at playing defense rather than true defensive specialists. It's just too bad that there isn't an award for the overlooked defensive guys who don't do much on offense, but Barkov absolutely deserves it this year.

 

[Buck Naked]

This is true. They aren't that similar.

But I will stand by my Selke comment about it generally going to top line players who are also good at playing defense rather than true defensive specialists. It's just too bad that there isn't an award for the overlooked defensive guys who don't do much on offense, but Barkov absolutely deserves it this year.

Yeah, I agree. Both can be true for some players though, and Barkov this year absolutely is one. Bergeron was usually another. Matthews is not.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Or you could actually watch the games instead of relying on Twitter charts to make your assessments.

I watch the games.

Sidney Crosby doesn't have significant defensive responsibilities, and in the rare instances where he actually is putting in effort in his own zone, he's not particularly good at it.

 

[Zbynek]

I watch the games.

Sidney Crosby doesn't have significant defensive responsibilities, and in the rare instances where he actually is putting in effort in his own zone, he's not particularly good at it.

That Sully doesn't give him PK minutes shouldn't preclude Sid from being a consensus top 10 Selke guy. Sid has always had some of the best defensive awareness in the league, and it hasn't slowed down any with age.



That's from less than 2 months ago.

 

[Midnight Judges]

That Sully doesn't give him PK minutes shouldn't preclude Sid from being a consensus top 10 Selke guy. Sid has always had some of the best defensive awareness in the league, and it hasn't slowed down any with age.

Indeed Crosby doesn't contribute to PK. Nor is he deployed in his own end very much - with a Patrick Kane-like 70% offensive zone starts (3rd season in a row over 70%).

Clearly Crosby is not taking match-ups to pay defense (because opposing teams are deploying their best players primarily in the offensive zone just as the Pens overwhelmingly do for Sid) - he's being deployed specifically to be sheltered from the tough defensive assignments, which is the opposite of what a top defensive player is used for.

Nor does Crosby prevent goals from being scored - his 93 ES goals against is one of the worst tallies from any forward in decades - worse than any season by Ovechkin.

I can post individual great defensive efforts from virtually every player in the NHL. A decent play here and there doesn't amount to much. The play you posted wasn't even in his own end.

Crosby's defense is a full blown myth perpetuated by people who want to compensate for him not being among the best offensive players anymore.

 

[Zbynek]

Indeed Crosby doesn't contribute to PK. Nor is he deployed in his own end very much - with a Patrick Kane-like 70% offensive zone starts (3rd season in a row over 70%).

Clearly Crosby is not taking match-ups to pay defense (because opposing teams are deploying their best players primarily in the offensive zone just as the Pens overwhelmingly do for Sid) - he's being deployed specifically to be sheltered from the tough defensive assignments, which is the opposite of what a top defensive player is used for.

Nor does Crosby prevent goals from being scored - his 93 ES goals against is one of the worst tallies from any forward in decades - worse than any season by Ovechkin.

I can post individual great defensive efforts from virtually every player in the NHL. A decent play here and there doesn't amount to much. The play you posted wasn't even in his own end.

Crosby's defense is a full blown myth perpetuated by people who want to compensate for him not being among the best offensive players anymore.

Since I can tell you are going off pretty much nothing but statistics, I'm going to stick with my initial comment to actually watch the games. Sid might not be Barkov (though again, that's more deployment than anything - he has the skillset to be if that's what the roster called for) but he's absolutely, 100% a defensively responsible forward and the top 10 Selke voting results from the past 2 decades reflect that.

The comparison to Ovie is laughable, and the bolded part of your post is just embarrassing. Maybe stick to Caps hockey.

Think we're done here. All the best bud

 

[Midnight Judges]

Since I can tell you are going off pretty much nothing but statistics, I'm going to stick with my initial comment to actually watch the games.

Nope. I've watched many hundreds of games for Sidney Crosby - as has every hardcore NHL fan at this point in his career.

He simply isn't good at defense - which is why his defensive statistics were almost identical to Alex Ovechkin's during their primes and nowhere near Bergeron/Datsyuk/Kopitar/Couturier.

Sid might not be Barkov (though again, that's more deployment than anything - he has the skillset to be if that's what the roster called for) but he's absolutely, 100% a defensively responsible forward and the top 10 Selke voting results from the past 2 decades reflect that.

Crosby is and always has been deployed overwhelmingly for offense. If he was defensively responsible and defensively talented - as you say - then his defensive statistics would reflect it over the course of 1450+ games. They don't. In fact they show the exact opposite.

Your argument amounts to refusing virtually all evidence in favor of a media narrative.

 

[I am not exposed]

Sid cracking the top 10 isn't merely questionable. He just had his worst defensive season in ages. The fact that he received any first-place votes shows how out of touch NHL media members are.

During one of the playoff games both commentators were stating they would definitely have had Crosby top 3. And it was ridiculous he wasn't included.

The never ending Crosby grace period continues.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Since I can tell you are going off pretty much nothing but statistics, I'm going to stick with my initial comment to actually watch the games. Sid might not be Barkov (though again, that's more deployment than anything - he has the skillset to be if that's what the roster called for) but he's absolutely, 100% a defensively responsible forward and the top 10 Selke voting results from the past 2 decades reflect that.

The comparison to Ovie is laughable, and the bolded part of your post is just embarrassing. Maybe stick to Caps hockey.

Think we're done here. All the best bud

The problem is he's not even going off statistics, plural. He's going off of one single, solitary stat that isn't even generally seen as a good measure of an individual player's defensive performance.

 

[HFpapi]

I'm clearly out of the loop.

Why do we randomly know the Selke winner now? Are the award shows a thing of the past and they just drip-feed one winner per day the same way they do the nominations?

 

[Midnight Judges]

The problem is he's not even going off statistics, plural. He's going off of one single, solitary stat that isn't even generally seen as a good measure of an individual player's defensive performance.

That is false.

I've highlighted data about goals against, GA/60 at ES and 5v5, deployment/match-ups, and penalty killing. Ijuka provided data showing Crosby is in the 30th percentile according to a WAR chart.

Where is this data or evidence that shows Sidney Crosby to be a top 5 defensive forward in the NHL?

 

[cowboy82nd]

Top 10 Selke profile looks like this.

At some point, they should just stop pretending that Selke is for defense and just make it a trophy for the best offensive forward instead.

That would be the Art Ross trophy.