Around the League

[norrisnick]

So the messy divorce was following ownership orders then making way for the most popular person in Franchise history. What a monster…

Sports fandom is irrational so I get it. But yeah I still give the guy that headed three cups and played a massive part in 4 tons of love. Keep in mind Ken Holland was the one dissenting vote in the three headed GM setup that was trading Yzerman to Ottawa. It is actually why he gained control after Ilitch killed the deal.

Stay around long enough and live to see yourself become the villain.

Exactly. Not sure why that's shocking if there is a saying for it...

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I said he was a factor, but he wasn't "largely responsible" when you consider all the guys above and around him.

I never heard anything about him essentially being "co-GM with Devellano and Bowman." Seems like they just could've given him the title at that point if it was truly a peer to peer relationship. More likely is that it wasn't.

They were a three headed tandem when Bowman was brought in. Large part of this being Bowman’s failed front office tenure in Buffalo, the only time he has full autonomy. Jimmy D and Holland were the other powerbrokers.

Most I know with good organization information pointed out Holland’s star rose in the setup when he differed from building around Fedorov and Primeau while dealing Yzerman. Ilitch ultimately killed the deal, Jimmy has wrote a somewhat different thing than that in a book. But I trust who I heard it from.

You can have a Jimmy D or Holland debate, Jimmy established a lot of things. Bowman’s front office role has always been exaggerated. Like how Holland was also a massive backer of the Shanahan trade and Igor. Bowman takes victory laps but without Holland throwing support those are DOA.

Jimmy was massively in love with Primeau and really bitter when he was moved.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

So the messy divorce was following ownership orders then making way for the most popular person in Franchise history. What a monster…

Sports fandom is irrational so I get it. But yeah I still give the guy that headed three cups and played a massive part in 4 tons of love. Keep in mind Ken Holland was the one dissenting vote in the three headed GM setup that was trading Yzerman to Ottawa. It is actually why he gained control after Ilitch killed the deal.

Stay around long enough and live to see yourself become the villain.

He refused to step aside initially for Yzerman, and to dismiss all the bad holland did as "following ownership orders" is a bit reductive.

Why even have a GM if all their moves are simply following ownership's orders?

This is getting ridiculous given it all stems from my post about not wanting the Oilers to win with Holland as their GM.

I can be appreciative of all Holland did for the Wings in the good half of his career. But I still don't want to hear the hyperbolic praise (remember he'd be winning a Cup for Canada) he'd get in Edmonton any more than I'd want to listen to the press fawn over some player for scoring an incredibly skilled goal to win the Cup when what actually happened was McDavid bounced it in off their ass while they weren't looking.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't think we can blame McDonnell's bad picks between 2004 and 2013 for the state of Detroit anymore. At a certain point that falls to leadership for not doing something about that. That was Holland.

Was he good in the 80s and 90s? Yes. Was he good in the 00s? Less so. Was he good in the 10s? f*** no.

The league changed and passed Holland by. He should have retired 14 years ago and let young Yzerman take his spot.

His contention was he didn’t want to and they couldn’t jump Jim Nill for Yzerman at the time. People seem to ignore the second part, the Wings were going to run aground regardless then without the Suter miracle. I am glad Yzerman came back with a far more reasonable fanbase and time to build things his way.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

They were a three headed tandem when Bowman was brought in. Large part of this being Bowman’s failed front office tenure in Buffalo, the only time he has full autonomy. Jimmy D and Holland were the other powerbrokers.

Most I know with good organization information pointed out Holland’s star rose in the setup when he differed from building around Fedorov and Primeau while dealing Yzerman. Ilitch ultimately killed the deal, Jimmy has wrote a somewhat different thing than that in a book. But I trust who I heard it from.

You can have a Jimmy D or Holland debate, Jimmy established a lot of things. Bowman’s front office role has always been exaggerated. Like how Holland was also a massive backer of the Shanahan trade and Igor. Bowman takes victory laps but without Holland throwing support those are DOA.

Jimmy was massively in love with Primeau and really bitter when he was moved.

It's impressive how many people here on hfboards have reputable, confirmable insider information that the local press can't seem to get their hands on. Or maybe they don't print it because it's just a bunch of unverifiable rumors.

Holland's star obviously rose because they named him GM. If you want to give him the lionshare of credit for the Wings success, knock yourself out. But since you seem to believe he was the primary architect of the Wings 20+ years of success, it's pretty funny how little responsibility you give him for putting the Wings in the ditch.

Good Wings = Holland was the mastermind, back to before he was even GM.

Bad Wings = Holland's hands were tied due to ownership.

 

[ricky0034]

honestly most of the anger towards Holland is whatever but the fact that people genuinely seem to hold a grudge against him for not wanting to step aside from being a GM in 2010 when he was 54 years old(5 years younger than Yzerman is right now!) and was literally a year removed from being in the finals and two years removed from winning a Cup is such a "bitch eating crackers" thing

like....it's just such a completely unreasonable thing to actually expect out of someone but i've seen it mentioned like it's some big thing against him by multiple people today in this very thread

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

It's impressive how many people here on hfboards have reputable, confirmable insider information that the local press can't seem to get their hands on. Or maybe they don't print it because it's just a bunch of unverifiable rumors.

Holland's star obviously rose because they named him GM. If you want to give him the lionshare of credit for the Wings success, knock yourself out. But since you seem to believe he was the primary architect of the Wings 20+ years of success, it's pretty funny how little responsibility you give him for putting the Wings in the ditch.

Good Wings = Holland was the mastermind, back to before he was even GM.

Bad Wings = Holland's hands were tied due to ownership.

Each team eventually winds up in the ditch, what are his options post 2014? Basically think Boston loss, where he clearly waivers in pretty much every interview moving forward. I mean I get that everyone wants him to go in like Loki in Dogma throw down his sword piss on Ilitch’s carpet and demand a rebuild but it wasn’t the organization goal.

The players he drafted as a scout, the people he surrounded himself with for years are important to that longer narrative. I think he misfired badly after being raided a bunch of times on Wright as his director of scouting. My biggest gripe of the Holland era is probably him. However, one of his strengths though has always been organizational wide development. I very much appreciate everything he did and there is a reason he is in the HHOF.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

honestly most of the anger towards Holland is whatever but the fact that people genuinely seem to hold a grudge against him for not wanting to step aside from being a GM in 2010 when he was 54 years old(5 years younger than Yzerman is right now!) and was literally a year removed from being in the finals and two years removed from winning a Cup is such a "bitch eating crackers" thing

like....it's just such a completely unreasonable thing to actually expect out of someone but i've seen it mentioned like it's some big thing against him by multiple people today in this very thread

I have no idea what bitch eating crackers means but ok. They weren't asking him to retire. He was being promoted.

And for me it's not so much that he didn't step aside for Yzerman. It's that he didn't step aside and then made a string of terrible decisions that handicapped any future rebuild.

Each team eventually winds up in the ditch, what are his options post 2014? Basically think Boston loss, where he clearly waivers in pretty much every interview moving forward. I mean I get that everyone wants him to go in like Loki in Dogma throw down his sword piss on Ilitch’s carpet and demand a rebuild but it wasn’t the organization goal.

The players he drafted as a scout, the people he surrounded himself with for years are important to that longer narrative. I think he misfired badly after being raided a bunch of times on Wright as his director of scouting. My biggest gripe of the Holland era is probably him. However, one of his strengths though has always been organizational wide development. I very much appreciate everything he did and there is a reason he is in the HHOF.

Again, this is a massive over simplification. Each team eventually needs to rebuild. That doesn't magically wash away all the terrible moves Holland made. And I'm talking after they missed the playoffs too.

You said you don't understand the logic of not wanting Holland to win in Edmonton but the gap in your understanding seems to be in the later part of his career with the Wings.

Holland brought that genius Wright with him to Edmonton by the way.

 

[RabidBadger]

No fan base loves to debate water under the bridge like Wings fans! (I do realize the latter years of Holland are still being felt ) If we started a "debate X event in franchise history" thread it would blow up.

Some good topics would be: trading Adam Oates, Chris Osgood...great goalie or passenger?, and obviously if it's okay to hate on Ken Holland. Of course it has to start with the topic of Hossa/Franzen.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

No fan base loves to debate water under the bridge like Wings fans! (I do realize the latter years of Holland are still being felt ) If we started a "debate X event in franchise history" thread it would blow up.

Some good topics would be: trading Adam Oates, Chris Osgood...great goalie or passenger?, and obviously if it's okay to hate on Ken Holland. Of course it has to start with the topic of Hossa/Franzen.

Dude don't get me started on the Oates trade. That broke my heart as a kid. The Graves trade too.

What did the wings have against Adams?

 

[norrisnick]

Dude don't get me started on the Oates trade. That broke my heart as a kid. The Graves trade too.

What did the wings have against Adams?

Some interesting things here...

Jack Adams - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I have no idea what bitch eating crackers means but ok. They weren't asking him to retire. He was being promoted.

And for me it's not so much that he didn't step aside for Yzerman. It's that he didn't step aside and then made a string of terrible decisions that handicapped any future rebuild.



Again, this is a massive over simplification. Each team eventually needs to rebuild. That doesn't magically wash away all the terrible moves Holland made. And I'm talking after they missed the playoffs too.

You said you don't understand the logic of not wanting Holland to win in Edmonton but the gap in your understanding seems to be in the later part of his career with the Wings.

Holland brought that genius Wright with him to Edmonton by the way.

The Oilers parted ways with Wright. Sorry I guess I don't understand rooting against him. I might root for him for all he gave, but to actually hate the guy that played a massive responsibility in multiple championships to me doesn't make sense. But again to each their own. They weren't trading Kronwall, Datsyuk or Zetterberg, Franzen's career came to a rather tragic end. Keep in mind they signed league approved deals for Zetterberg and Franzen that were ******** retroactively punished because Brian Burke and others are whiners.

The moment that I became a massive Holland guy is really the on the fly rebuild of the mid-00s. Remember we weren't supposed to win out of the lockout, the big money spending Wings were doomed. We had the best team out of the lockout for the next five years. It was incredibly unlikely he would reload it a third time. I think he absolutely earned the chance to do it. Some things in life don't work out. 20/20 hindsight, but we were blessed to have a top 5 all-time GM. Whatever tired of debating a guy that hung banners and was a class act the whole way through deserving respect. I have similar feelings for the people that hate Trams or Dumars, etc. At a certain point when you give decades to an area and bring massive results, you shouldn't work to nitpick and reach for the bad times. Hate away, everyone is entitled to their opinions, even really bad ones.

I feel like for the record, I have openly said it isn't just for Holland either. I want McDavid to win a championship, having your best player be a winner is a big deal in pretty much every sport. It would be good for the game to have their marquee superstar and the best player since Gretzky and Mario win. It might be fun to laugh at the futility that is Edmonton, especially before Holland arrived and finally turned them into a perennial playoff team, but it sure doesn't help market the game.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

No fan base loves to debate water under the bridge like Wings fans! (I do realize the latter years of Holland are still being felt ) If we started a "debate X event in franchise history" thread it would blow up.

Some good topics would be: trading Adam Oates, Chris Osgood...great goalie or passenger?, and obviously if it's okay to hate on Ken Holland. Of course it has to start with the topic of Hossa/Franzen.

I am always stunned that our fanbase seems to be mostly against Osgood for the HHOF. I understand some of the arguments, I just am curious if there is another guy that is borderline who gets anywhere near the lack of support from their fans for their case as Osgood seems to from Wings fans. Worth noting too that if NHL doesn't screw around with the schedule and he has another Cup and a Smythe on that resume too in my opinion.

 

[ricky0034]

I have no idea what bitch eating crackers means but ok.

just a reference to this old internet thing

They weren't asking him to retire. He was being promoted.

like he was promoted in 2019 when Yzerman came back and then left for a GM role elsewhere like 2 weeks later?

he wants and wanted to do the day to day work of running a professional hockey team, not sure what's so hard to understand about that

And for me it's not so much that he didn't step aside for Yzerman. It's that he didn't step aside and then made a string of terrible decisions that handicapped any future rebuild.

the point is the whole "stepping aside" thing is irrelevant, be mad at him for what he did in his later years here sure whatever but practically nobody would have stepped aside in 2010 if they were in his position, it's an unreasonable expectation to the point where even bringing it up comes across as just looking for extra reasons to be mad at the guy

 

[Pavels Dog]

I have no idea what bitch eating crackers means but ok. They weren't asking him to retire. He was being promoted.

And for me it's not so much that he didn't step aside for Yzerman. It's that he didn't step aside and then made a string of terrible decisions that handicapped any future rebuild.

I'm not saying he made great decisions, but I feel it gets overstated how much trading away Janmark and Backman handicapped the rebuilding efforts. The only 1st rounder he traded away was in one of the weakest drafts of the last 20 years.

 

[norrisnick]

I'm not saying he made great decisions, but I feel it gets overstated how much trading away Janmark and Backman handicapped the rebuilding efforts. The only 1st rounder he traded away was in one of the weakest drafts of the last 20 years.

I don't really care how weak 2012's draft was perceived before, during, or after the fact. Trading a 1st to reacquire Quincey was horrific before the league ratified it. Instant loss, because Quincey could quite literally have been replaced by any warm body available with no discernible drop off. That's just burning draft assets to say you did it.

The following few deadline deals were just as awful. Doubly so when the assets involved played more playoff hockey this season than the deadline rentals did in the playoffs they were acquired for nearly 10 years earlier. Pissing away futures just to dig a deeper hole for the franchise to try and claw itself out of. Still clawing...

 

[Pavels Dog]

I don't really care how weak 2012's draft was perceived before, during, or after the fact. Trading a 1st to reacquire Quincey was horrific before the league ratified it. Instant loss, because Quincey could quite literally have been replaced by any warm body available with no discernible drop off. That's just burning draft assets to say you did it.

The following few deadline deals were just as awful. Doubly so when the assets involved played more playoff hockey this season than the deadline rentals did in the playoffs they were acquired for nearly 10 years earlier. Pissing away futures just to dig a deeper hole for the franchise to try and claw itself out of. Still clawing...

Like I say, you're overstating how much different things would be if we had drafted Olli Mättää and kept Janmark around.
We're not seeing any higher success from teams like Pittsburgh and Washington. It's not situations you can realistically GM you're way out of unless you get struck with massive amounts of luck.

 

[norrisnick]

It was likely to be bad anyway so who cares if he made it worse.

Got it...