pnep
Registered User
This is new version of my research....
Last edited:
Jun 22, 2009:
Pnep, thanks for the data.
General question about the HOF Points system -- when you assign points to different awards/stats, how do you determine the values (ie 150 points for a Hart, 100 for Conn Smythe, etc)? Is there a calculation (some type of regression analysis maybe?)
Since this is a predictive system, have you tested the results (ie perhaps 95% of eligible players with a score above XX are actually in the Hall, then maybe there's a borderline category with 50% of players between YY and ZZ points in the Hall?)
Is that correct, pnep? I don't want to misrepresent you.
Worst players in the Hall of Fame?
Player Name -- YEAR1 -- YEAR2 -- NHL Seasons -- POS -- HHOF Monitor PTS
===================================================================
Smith Tommy -- 1919-20 -- 1919-20 -- 1 -- C -- 1,5 (Played 13 professional seasons from 1905 to 1920)
Ross Art -- 1917-18 -- 1917-18 -- 1 -- D -- 2,3 (Played 13 professional seasons from 1904 to 1918)
Patrick Lester -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- D -- 12,4 (Played 18 professional seasons from 1903 to 1926)
Lehman Hugh -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- G -- 17 (Played 20 professional seasons from 1908 to 1928)
Laviolette Jack -- 1917-18 -- 1917-18 -- 1 -- D -- 18 (Played 12 professional seasons from 1903 to 1918)
Walker Jack -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- C -- 26,5 (Played 18 professional seasons from 1912 to 1928 )
Foyston Frank -- 1926-27 -- 1927-28 -- 2 -- LW -- 34 (Played 16 professional seasons from 1912 to 1928)
Hyland Harry -- 1917-18 -- 1917-18 -- 1 -- RW -- 36 (Played 10 professional seasons from 1908 to 1918 )
Crawford Rusty -- 1917-18 -- 1918-19 -- 2 -- LW -- 82 (Played 12 professional seasons from 1912 to 1926)
Simpson Joe -- 1925-26 -- 1930-31 -- 6 -- D -- 100,7 (Played 10 professional seasons from 1921 to 1931)
Keats Duke -- 1926-27 -- 1928-29 -- 3 -- C -- 109 (Played 10 professional seasons from 1915 to 1929)
Green Wilf Shorty -- 1923-24 -- 1926-27 -- 4 -- RW -- 109
Mackay Mickey -- 1926-27 -- 1929-30 -- 4 -- C -- 160 (Played 15 professional seasons from 1914 to 1930)
Frederickson Frank -- 1926-27 -- 1930-31 -- 5 -- C -- 191,5 (Played 11 professional seasons from 1920 to 1931)
Holmes Harry Hap -- 1917-18 -- 1927-28 -- 4 -- G -- 233 (Played 16 professional seasons from 1912 to 1928)
Irvin Dick -- 1926-27 -- 1928-29 -- 3 -- C -- 252,5 (Played 9 professional seasons from 1916 to 1929)
Hay George -- 1926-27 -- 1933-34 -- 7 -- C -- 254 (Played 12 professional seasons from 1921 to 1934)
Hall Joe -- 1917-18 -- 1918-19 -- 2 -- D -- 300,5 (Played 16 professional seasons from 1903 to 1919)
Pitre Didier -- 1917-18 -- 1922-23 -- 6 -- RW -- 333,5 (Played 19 professional seasons from 1903 to 1923)
Fetisov Viacheslav -- 1989-90 -- 1997-98 -- 9 -- D -- 335,25 (Played 21 professional seasons from 1976 to 1997)
those guys were great players in other pro leagues
Green , Laprade , Boivin , Horner and Lewis dont play in other pro leagues....
Projected Awards Winners used for:
1 and 2 ALL STAR TEAMS (Seasons 1917-18/1929-30)
CALDER and CALDER Runner Up (Seasons 1921-22/1931-32)
CONN SMYTHE (Seasons 1917-18/1963-64)
HART and HART Runner Up (Seasons 1917-18/1922-23)
BYNG (Seasons 1917-18/1923-24)
NORRIS and NORRIS Runner Up (Seasons 1917-18/1952-53)
VEZINA and VEZINA Runner Up (Seasons 1917-18/1925-26)
Pierre Pilote doesn't have a Conn Smythe and King Clancy has 2 first and 2nd all stars not 5 and 5
This is very interesting & well thought out. The only drawback as someone else pointed out is the exclusion of other major leagues. If the WHA was included, Hull would easily pass Richard & maybe Lemieux. Howe would gain ground on Gretzy. Curious as to why some players don't show up. For instance--Litzenberger (a fav of mine), had a comparable career to Don Mckenny & better than Laprade. what are Litz's points based on this formula.
I know, I didn't include them, except for Green, who must have been a great player in an amateur league, because if he wasn't, then he must be the least deserving NHLer in the Hall of Fame.
Indeed.
Green isn't a name I'd ever paid much attention before, but he certainly does appear to be - by far - the weakest selection ever into the HHOF.
Played 4 seasons in the NHL with the Hamilton/NY Americans franchise between the ages of 27-31 (what should be his prime years). One season was decent, and the other three were completely forgettable with no more than 10 points in any of them. Even in his best year, he wasn't top-10 in NHL scoring.
In each of his NHL seasons, he was outscored by teammates Billy Burch (a legitimate HHOFer) and his brother Red Green (!), who is not in the HHOF. It's almost like they elected the wrong brother. Amazingly, despite the fact that Burch won the Hart in 1925 and Lady Byng in 1927 and blew away Green statistically, it took him an extra 12 years to get to the HHOF.
Green played several seasons of amateur hockey in the NOHA before that, but again it seems that his brother out-produced him. And succeeding in an amateur league in the 1920s shouldn't carry much weight if you can't transfer it to pro. NHL, PCHA, or whatever.
Sounds like he spearheaded the first NHL player strike in 1925, and maybe that's why he's in. Would be a very weak reason for induction.
Maybe I'm missing something because I'm not very familiar with the era. But it definitely seems like a very oddball choice. He definitely doesn't appear to be a 'great' of the 1920s by any stretch of the imagination.
In each of his NHL seasons, he was outscored by teammates Billy Burch (a legitimate HHOFer) and his brother Red Green (!), who is not in the HHOF. It's almost like they elected the wrong brother. Amazingly, despite the fact that Burch won the Hart in 1925 and Lady Byng in 1927 and blew away Green statistically, it took him an extra 12 years to get to the HHOF.
Peak Performance (Total HHOF Monitor PTS, 3 consecutive seasons)
Player -- POS -- TEAM -- Last Seas. -- Total HHOF PTS (3 seas.)
==========================================================
Gretzky Wayne -- C -- EDM -- 1984-85 -- 2057
Orr Bobby -- D -- BOS -- 1971-72 -- 1937,8
Lafleur Guy -- RW -- MTL -- 1977-78 -- 1727,5
Howe Gordie -- RW -- DET -- 1953-54 -- 1580
Esposito Phil -- C -- BOS -- 1973-74 -- 1553,5
Hasek Dominik -- G -- BUF -- 1998-99 -- 1511
Hull Bobby -- LW -- CHI -- 1965-66 -- 1464,5
Mikita Stan -- C -- CHI -- 1967-68 -- 1400
Jagr Jaromir -- RW -- PIT -- 1999-00 -- 1388,5
Beliveau Jean -- C -- MTL -- 1956-57 -- 1307,5
Lalonde Newsy -- C -- MTL -- 1920-21 -- 1235
Lemieux Mario -- C -- PIT -- 1988-89 -- 1225
Sawchuk Terry -- G -- DET -- 1953-54 -- 1194
Plante Jacques -- G -- MTL -- 1959-60 -- 1168,5
Dryden Ken -- G -- MTL -- 1977-78 -- 1167
Conacher Charlie -- RW -- TOR -- 1935-36 -- 1165,5
Richard Maurice -- RW -- MTL -- 1946-47 -- 1135,5
Dye Babe -- RW -- TOR -- 1922-23 -- 1126,5
Parent Bernie -- G -- PHI -- 1975-76 -- 1119,5
Durnan Bill -- G -- MTL -- 1945-46 -- 1098,5
Bossy Mike -- RW -- NYI -- 1982-83 -- 1084,5
Hull Brett -- RW -- STL -- 1991-92 -- 1079,5
Malone Joe -- C -- HAM -- 1919-20 -- 1059
Benedict Clint -- G -- OTT1 -- 1920-21 -- 1058
Cook Bill -- RW -- NYR -- 1932-33 -- 1056,5
Trottier Bryan -- C -- NYI -- 1979-80 -- 1039,5
Shore Eddie -- D -- BOS -- 1932-33 -- 1016,65
Denneny Cy -- LW -- OTT1 -- 1924-25 -- 1015
Moore Dickie -- LW -- MTL -- 1958-59 -- 1012
Clarke Bobby -- C -- PHI -- 1975-76 -- 997
Kurri Jari -- RW -- EDM -- 1986-87 -- 989,5
Coffey Paul -- D -- EDM -- 1985-86 -- 989,05
Kelly Red -- D -- DET -- 1953-54 -- 979,1
Clapper Dit -- D -- BOS -- 1940-41 -- 971,2
Brimsek Frank -- G -- BOS -- 1940-41 -- 965,5
Dionne Marcel -- C -- LA -- 1980-81 -- 963
Thompson Tiny -- G -- BOS -- 1930-31 -- 953,5
Boucher George -- D -- OTT1 -- 1923-24 -- 951,3
Harvey Doug -- D -- MTL -- 1957-58 -- 945,7
Bourque Ray -- D -- BOS -- 1991-92 -- 940,6
Lidstrom Nicklas -- D -- DET -- 2002-03 -- 934,3
Hextall Bryan Sr. -- RW -- NYR -- 1941-42 -- 928,5
Sakic Joe -- C -- COL -- 2001-02 -- 927
Morenz Howie -- C -- MTL -- 1931-32 -- 920,5
Boucher Frank -- C -- NYR -- 1929-30 -- 919
Cleghorn Sprague -- D -- BOS -- 1925-26 -- 913,05
Esposito Tony -- G -- CHI -- 1971-72 -- 909
Iginla Jarome -- RW -- CGY -- 2003-04 -- 893,5
Lach Elmer -- C -- MTL -- 1945-46 -- 884,5
Stewart Nels -- C -- MTM -- 1927-28 -- 884,5
pnep;6158186[B said:]0028-1988/2006-17-C-1274-1555-162-192-14-1-0-03-0-0-1-00-2-0-0-0-0-1-02-0-F-2291,0-Sakic Joe[/B]0029-1980/2001-21-D-1458-1374-199-175-00-0-0-04-4-0-0-00-1-3-2-0-0-0-04-3-Y-2277,0-Coffey Paul
0030-1991/2006-14-D-1124-0870-174-127-00-0-0-07-0-0-0-00-0-4-3-0-0-1-03-1-F-2276,1-Lidstrom Nicklas
0031-1950/1968-16-R-1029-0949-261-236-00-1-0-01-2-2-0-02-0-0-0-0-0-1-06-4-Y-2251,5-Geoffrion Bernie
0032-1975/1994-18-C-1310-1189-240-163-00-1-2-02-2-0-0-01-1-0-0-0-0-1-06-1-Y-2232,5-Trottier Bryan
0033-1973/1988-15-D-1090-0881-210-153-08-0-1-05-2-0-0-00-0-3-2-0-0-0-04-1-Y-2189,4-Potvin Denis
0034-1926/1937-11-R-0845-0777-113-077-11-0-2-04-2-3-1-02-0-0-0-0-0-0-02-2-Y-2141,5-Cook Bill
0035-1956/1974-18-L-1330-1135-239-182-00-0-0-03-6-0-4-00-0-0-0-0-0-0-06-2-Y-2138,5-Mahovlich Frank
0036-1921/1937-16-D-1219-0733-150-049-02-0-0-05-5-0-0-00-0-2-4-0-0-0-03-3-Y-2134,4-Clancy King
0037-1921/1944-14-C-1026-1040-137-117-00-0-0-04-4-0-0-00-1-0-0-0-0-1-02-3-Y-2126,0-Boucher Frank
0038-1943/1950-07-G-0498-0277-090-054-01-0-1-06-0-0-0-00-0-0-0-6-0-0-02-1-Y-2124,5-Durnan Bill
0039-1985/2006-20-R-1308-1419-201-188-04-1-0-03-0-3-1-00-1-0-0-0-0-0-02-2-F-2089,5-Hull Brett
0040-1955/1969-14-D-1031-0545-162-111-07-0-0-05-3-0-0-00-0-3-3-0-0-1-01-2-Y-2074,7-Pilote Pierre
0041-1969/1984-15-C-1186-1062-170-125-09-3-1-02-2-0-0-00-2-0-0-0-0-0-02-2-Y-2073,0-Clarke Bobby
0042-1938/1950-10-G-0704-0358-136-064-00-0-1-02-6-0-0-00-0-0-0-2-3-0-02-2-Y-2070,0-Brimsek Frank
0043-1927/1947-20-R-1436-0823-179-066-14-0-1-04-3-0-1-00-0-2-1-0-0-0-03-3-Y-2054,8-Clapper Dit
0044-1971/1989-18-C-1389-1498-058-045-01-0-1-02-2-0-2-01-3-0-0-0-0-0-00-0-Y-2053,0-Dionne Marcel
0045-1983/2006-22-C-1561-1681-196-186-19-0-0-01-0-0-2-00-0-0-0-0-0-1-03-1-F-2027,5-Yzerman Steve