Speculation: Offseason coaching thread: Should they stay or should they go?

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It's still so weird to me that the implication is that the team is somehow being hamstrung by Sid and Geno and their combined like 14ish million a year for perfectly acceptable 1st and 2nd line center production. If you wanna talk about lazy thinking... THAT is lazy thinking. They've done their part and more... especially considering their age and mileage on those tires.

Now I mean... moving ahead who knows. Now they are both REALLY old. But the last couple of years? C'mon.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Sid's still very good, Geno's still playing at a level that's not a huge concern. Two 36+ year old guys aren't gonna prevent a team from bottoming out if a couple of key pieces with value are removed. Jake's gone, I don't expect Bunting to keep up at a PPG pace, if you traded Petts and Rust, this team's definitely capable of finishing right around the likes of the Sens and the Coyotes or Yetis or whatever the f*** they're about to be called. Particularly so if age/injury finally catch up to Sid.

 

[BusinessGoose]

1. Just stop playing garbo vets in the bottom six

2. Learn how to do proper d-zone coverage, or d-zone coverage at a higher than PeeWee levels of awareness

3. Get in faces on PK

4. Get someone in the low slot on PP


5. And f***ing profit

Five steps to "rebuild" THIS team, on the fly

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think people on this site (not just in here, just in general) have an absolutely ridiculous idea for what a "rebuild" actually looks like. Even the most aggressive rebuilds like the Rangers sold off pieces gradually. The Rangers rebuild started at the 2018 deadline, but they didn't nuke the team all at once. The Rangers rebuild was really aggressive, but it still took 3 deadlines and they mostly only traded rentals. The idea that a team would just nuke itself to orbit to completely bottom out is just not how teams operate.

But anyways, how this relates to Dubas is that he is not trying to push Crosby and Malkin out of Pittsburgh with a "rebuild" and it's a silly suggestion. At the same time, I do think Dubas thinks their window is closed and wants to rebuild/retool the team. If the players and coaches are mad about that, maybe they should look in the mirror and realize why Dubas thinks this team is toast. He added Erik Karlsson in the off-season and this team somehow got worse. I put that FAR more on coaching than I do on the players, but the players aren't innocent there.

The "rebuild" Dubas is going to do is keep the big guns while gradually selling off other pieces as their contracts expire. They'll do the same exact rebuild that every other team does, and will eventually truly bottom out once Crosby and Malkin retire. If Sullivan or the players are mad about that, maybe they should have shown Dubas more this year to make him think this team wasn't completely spent.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Rangers never rebuilt.

They traded out multiple pieces while also giving up assets for Fox and Trouba and signing Panarin.

They retooled.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Rangers never rebuilt.

They traded out multiple pieces while also giving up assets for Fox and Trouba and signing Panarin.

They retooled.

How does the semantics difference between a rebuild and a retool have even the slightest bit of relevance to the point I was making?

 

[Gurglesons]

Sid's still very good, Geno's still playing at a level that's not a huge concern. Two 36+ year old guys aren't gonna prevent a team from bottoming out if a couple of key pieces with value are removed. Jake's gone, I don't expect Bunting to keep up at a PPG pace, if you traded Petts and Rust, this team's definitely capable of finishing right around the likes of the Sens and the Coyotes or Yetis or whatever the f*** they're about to be called. Particularly so if age/injury finally catch up to Sid.

If Sid or Malkin is injured, I think we can finish top five. With them healthy, I don't see it as a reality.

 

[66-30-33]

It's wild to think that we gave Dubas more money than any other player or asset currently is owed by this franchsie and he doesn't have that power.



I wish he was a nerd. He seems like he's just Ron Hextall without the actual playing experience.

What would we look like under MacFarland instead of Hextall?

 

[Gurglesons]

How does the semantics difference between a rebuild and a retool have even the slightest bit of relevance to the point I was making?

I know what a rebuild looks like. You can't do it with Sid and Malkin.

I don't think Sid will allow it either. He will probably just leave PIT which is I assume why Dubas is tip toeing the Sullivan situation.

What would we look like under MacFarland instead of Hextall?

Imagine this team last summer with the cap space and assets we had under Tulsky.

Would've been lights out.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

Fire Sullivan and company and give the bank to Cooper. Seems easy enough haha

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If Sid or Malkin is injured, I think we can finish top five. With them healthy, I don't see it as a reality.

This team was like 7th worst in the NHL before Sid and Ned went on a nice 10 game run ind mid-to-late March. It's definitely possible even without injury imo. Especially if Sully and Reirden return and Jarry's kept as the starter who inevitably craters right around Valentine's Day onward.

I know what a rebuild looks like. You can't do it with Sid and Malkin.

I don't think Sid will allow it either. He will probably just leave PIT which is I assume why Dubas is tip toeing the Sullivan situation.



Imagine this team last summer with the cap space and assets we had under Tulsky.

Would've been lights out.

Then let Sid walk if he's gonna hold the organization hostage. /shrug

I don't think he would, fwiw. But if he threw a tantrum and demanded the team not trade any assets a la Jake, or demanded they kept Sullivan despite his recent results as coach, then well... Bye.

 

[Gurglesons]

This team was like 7th worst in the NHL before Sid and Ned went on a nice 10 game run ind mid-to-late March. It's definitely possible even without injury imo. Especially if Sully and Reirden return and Jarry's kept as the starter who inevitably craters right around Valentine's Day onward.

I think that is actually perfect evidence of why they won't crater. He turned DOC into a 50+ pt forward. That's the issue. You can trade away Jake and Rust. Sid will have DOC and Rakell in similar usage putting up 50-60 pts. Maybe if you have a GM willing to continously trade players it'll work.

Then let Sid walk if he's gonna hold the organization hostage. /shrug

I don't think he would, fwiw. But if he threw a tantrum and demanded the team not trade any assets a la Jake, or demanded they kept Sullivan despite his recent results as coach, then well... Bye.

Like I said, it lends me to believe this weird narrative I heard from someone that Dubas is putting on a public persona of beliving in the group, but in reality he's just going to strip it away with or without Crosby here.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Fire Sullivan and company and give the bank to Cooper. Seems easy enough haha

I think they've gotta be smart about who the next coach is. You don't go and get a guy like Cooper unless you're confident he's going to be capable of handling the very rapidly approaching post-Sid chapter. There's no use in hiring a guy for the here and now solely, imo. And I don't know that Cooper would want to take this job tbh. Sorta like I don't see any reason a guy like Reinhart would want to sign long-term with a team in the Pens' position now and the foreseeable future.

I think that is actually perfect evidence of why they won't crater. He turned DOC into a 50+ pt forward. That's the issue. You can trade away Jake and Rust. Sid will have DOC and Rakell in similar usage putting up 50-60 pts. Maybe if you have a GM willing to continously trade players it'll work.



Like I said, it lends me to believe this weird narrative I heard from someone that Dubas is putting on a public persona of beliving in the group, but in reality he's just going to strip it away with or without Crosby here.

Good, tbh. It's about time this team started to make some uncomfortable, emotionally detatched decisions.

Also, I dunno that DOC is a 50pt guy. Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think he's much more than a solid 3rd liner. Opportunity does a lot for players on bad teams piling up points.

 

[ThosePuckingPenguins]

I know many here don’t like FSG and I get it but I also don’t think they’d give him as much money and term and go on in their intro presser that he has all the control without letting him have the control of firing the coach. I don’t think Dubas takes a job where he doesn’t have that control either.

Does FSG like Sullivan? Obviously. Do they want him back? Probably. But I don’t think they’d tell Dubas to piss off if he came to them and said “hey we need to move on for reasons X, Y and Z.”

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I know many here don’t like FSG and I get it but I also don’t think they’d give him as much money and term and go on in their intro presser that he has all the control without letting him have the control of firing the coach. I don’t think Dubas takes a job where he doesn’t have that control either.

Does FSG like Sullivan? Obviously. Do they want him back? Probably. But I don’t think they’d tell Dubas to piss off if he came to them and said “hey we need to move on for reasons X, Y and Z.”

You're probably right.

I guess the next couple of weeks will tell us whether or not that he's just incompetent and weak, then. That being the case.

They sure didn't even wait for the handshake line to clean out the WB/S staff...

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I know many here don’t like FSG and I get it but I also don’t think they’d give him as much money and term and go on in their intro presser that he has all the control without letting him have the control of firing the coach. I don’t think Dubas takes a job where he doesn’t have that control either.

Does FSG like Sullivan? Obviously. Do they want him back? Probably. But I don’t think they’d tell Dubas to piss off if he came to them and said “hey we need to move on for reasons X, Y and Z.”

Agreed. The bigger issue is that Dubas views Sullivan entirely too highly. I think if Dubas wanted to fire Sullivan, he would, and he'd have FSG's okay in doing so. He just doesn't want to yet for some stupid reason.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think they've gotta be smart about who the next coach is. You don't go and get a guy like Cooper unless you're confident he's going to be capable of handling the very rapidly approaching post-Sid chapter. There's no use in hiring a guy for the here and now solely, imo. And I don't know that Cooper would want to take this job tbh. Sorta like I don't see any reason a guy like Reinhart would want to sign long-term with a team in the Pens' position now and the foreseeable future.

Good, tbh. It's about time this team started to make some uncomfortable, emotionally detatched decisions.

Also, I dunno that DOC is a 50pt guy. Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think he's much more than a solid 3rd liner. Opportunity does a lot for players on bad teams piling up points.

I was just speaking to him producing like one while with Sid.

Maybe it’s good. Maybe we get ten years of this same dysfunctional management without the shield of all timers like Sid and Malkin.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Maybe it’s good. Maybe we get ten years of this same dysfunctional management without the shield of all timers like Sid and Malkin.

It's going to be fun watching people fully realize how hard these two have pulled this team once they are finally gone.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I was just speaking to him producing like one while with Sid.

Maybe it’s good. Maybe we get ten years of this same dysfunctional management without the shield of all timers like Sid and Malkin.

I know I'm in the minority in this, but this team's already the Sabres, Coyotes, Sens, whatever other laughable franchise people want to point to. They've been dead in the water and getting worse every year for seven seasons now. Much like my "nuke the coaching staff, how much worse can it get?" stance, I don't really see a difference between being a bottom of the barrel team and barely missing/making the playoffs only to be what the Caps were this spring from here on out.

I don't think this team's gonna be in a position where Sid or Geno ask out, and I am certain they wouldn't be pushed out of town. Regardless of which direction they decide to go. If that was a realistic scenario, I think there would've been serious, credible rumblings about it at this point. It's been nearly a decade since the team was any kind of relevant.

 

[chethejet]

Said it before Hextall had a 3 year plan in mind as to keeping the window open. Contracts for Rust, Malkin. Letang in year 4 either lose movement clauses or the actual salaries are lower and going lower after this coming season. Same for Karlsson as to his salary. After next year his salary with the SJ retention is 13,5 million which is really attractive. FSG wanted to sell tickets and knew they could do that with expectations of playoffs. Dubas moves Smith and makes smart moves here and Pens with better coaching and adding size and bang are not in that bad a shape. Yes gradual rebuild will take place as assets are moved. But Dubas is adding prospects and draft choices to enable the rebuild.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I know I'm in the minority in this, but this team's already the Sabres, Coyotes, Sens, whatever other laughable franchise people want to point to. They've been dead in the water and getting worse every year for seven seasons now. Much like my "nuke the coaching staff, how much worse can it get?" stance, I don't really see a difference between being a bottom of the barrel team and barely missing/making the playoffs only to be what the Caps were this spring from here on out.

I don't think this team's gonna be in a position where Sid or Geno ask out, and I am certain they wouldn't be pushed out of town. Regardless of which direction they decide to go. If that was a realistic scenario, I think there would've been serious, credible rumblings about it at this point. It's been nearly a decade since the team was any kind of relevant.

I'm going to assume that other cities used to be "oh damn the pens are in town we should get tickets"

To "uuuh i think it's pittsburgh on Tuesday, eh, we don't need to go"

We're just another team, not a draw

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It's going to be fun watching people fully realize how hard these two have pulled this team once they are finally gone.

For clarity; I meant "good" in that Dubas is working behind the scenes to start stripping away pieces of value in preparation for a retool/rebuild/whatever nomenclature people prefer. Not "good" in that he's shoving Sid/Geno out of town. I don't think for a second Sid or Geno would ever ask out, and I think it's less realistic that this franchise would ever ask them to waive or pressure them into being dealt.

I just want them to pick a direction; rebuild/retool/whatever, or nuke the coaching staff and try to get one final run out of the era. I prefer the first because I do not believe the latter to be possible, but any direction is preferable to this "Just be patient, we believe in this group/coach" stuff is nauseating in 2024.

 

[Pancakes]

The Rangers never rebuilt.

They traded out multiple pieces while also giving up assets for Fox and Trouba and signing Panarin.

They retooled.

And we're not gonna be handed an Adam Fox and Artemi Panarin.

I think the Kings are a more realistic example to follow when it comes to retooling, but even they had some high picks to supplement their retool.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

For clarity; I meant "good" in that Dubas is working behind the scenes to start stripping away pieces of value in preparation for a retool/rebuild/whatever nomenclature people prefer. Not "good" in that he's shoving Sid/Geno out of town. I don't think for a second Sid or Geno would ever ask out, and I think it's less realistic that this franchise would ever ask them to waive or pressure them into being dealt.

I just want them to pick a direction; rebuild/retool/whatever, or nuke the coaching staff and try to get one final run out of the era. I prefer the first because I do not believe the latter to be possible, but any direction is preferable to this "Just be patient, we believe in this group/coach" stuff is nauseating in 2024.

I guess I'm mostly just saying this isn't the same as like... dumping Jeff Skinner or something. Actively trying to push Sid and Malkin out for the sake of a rebuild that might not actually even work is... a tricky line to ride. It's not as easy or simple as some make it sound.

I know some people don't give a shit about legacies and even I find a lot of that stuff pretty eyeroll-worthy. But these guys are in a different echelon.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I guess I'm mostly just saying this isn't the same as like... dumping Jeff Skinner or something. Actively trying to push Sid and Malkin out for the sake of a rebuild that might not actually even work is... a tricky line to ride. It's not as easy or simple as some make it sound.

I know some people don't give a shit about legacies and even I find a lot of that stuff pretty eyeroll-worthy. But these guys are in a different echelon.

I guess I just don't think there's any genuine threat of Sid or Geno asking out or being shoved out the door regardless of what the team does or doesn't so. If we're this far into the spiral and they're still spouting cliches about how much they believe and how committed they are--well.

And we've talked a lot about the whole parasocial connection thing to athletes and how weird I find it, so there's no need to rehash.

-edit- As for the legacy of the Sid/Geno era, it speaks for itself. Four Cup appearances, three Cup wins. It's been messy at times and it's almost been entirely self-inflicted by ineptitude within the franchise (coaches/FO/ownership) but it is what it is. The team's already well into tarnishing the end of things based on the past 6+ years if we're worried about that, but eh. It shouldn't have been this ugly down the stretch, undoubtedly, but I don't think that reflects poorly on Sid or Geno.