Proposal: VAN-PIT Mikheyev and Graves.

[SomeDude]

Yes. Please. No take backs.

I’d rather eat a turd sandwich for 2 years than 5.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is stupid logic. The Penguins aren't a contending team anymore, so paying anything or taking any sort of losing deal to get out of a contract at this point is just dumb asset management.

Bad teams don't pay to get out of bad deals. Bad teams acquire bad deals to get assets for them.

I'm not sure what you are even talking about.

Mikheyev is a middle six defensive forward signed to a cheaper deal than Reilly Smith.

We are shaving cap and acquiring a decent enough shorter term contract that better fits where Smith will likely play on our roster.

This trade solves a lot.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not sure what you are even talking about.

Mikheyev is a middle six defensive forward signed to a cheaper deal than Reilly Smith.

We are shaving cap and acquiring a decent enough shorter term contract that better fits where Smith will likely play on our roster.

This trade solves a lot.

Mikheyev had 31 points in 78 games last year and then had 0 points in 11 playoff games. He's not a "middle-6 defensive forward" whatsoever.

Not only that, but they don't need a 3rd line winger. Their 3rd line should be O'Connor-Eller-Puustinen. They need a 1st line winger to play with Crosby. They need to be moving Smith regardless to open up that spot for O'Connor, not swap Smith for another player (IMO a worse one) all while eating $2 million on Smith's deal. It makes zero sense for them.

 

[Gurglesons]

Mikheyev had 30 points in 79 games last year and then had 0 points in 11 playoff games.

And we are shaving 2+ million off our cap.

 

[Tempo]

I see a terrible proposal from a Canucks fan and a Penguins fan with homer glasses so thick he might as well be blind.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And we are shaving 2+ million off our cap.

They're shaving off $2+ million from the cap because they're trading 2 players for 1. What about the guy you're replacing Graves with? That's costing more than $2 million.

I see a terrible proposal from a Canucks fan and a Penguins fan with homer glasses so thick he might as well be blind.

You seem to still be bitter that your team lost to the Oilers last night.

I'm arguing why it makes no sense for the Penguins. I don't really care whether it makes sense for the Canucks or not, because I'm just looking at it from how I think it impacts my team. If Canucks fans don't want to do it either, that's good with me.

 

[Gurglesons]

They're shaving off $2+ million from the cap because they're trading 2 players for 1. What about the guy you're replacing Graves with? That's costing more than $2 million.



You seem to still be bitter that your team lost to the Oilers last night.

I'm arguing why it makes no sense for the Penguins. I don't really care whether it makes sense for the Canucks or not, because I'm just looking at it from how I think it impacts my team. If Canucks fans don't want to do it either, that's good with me.

Yeah, but it makes a lot more sense for the Penguins to spend 6 million on an actual 2nd LHD instead of paying 4.5 on a guy who as soon as he went out of the line-up the Penguins went on a run.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, but it makes a lot more sense for the Penguins to spend 6 million on an actual 2nd LHD instead of paying 4.5 on a guy who as soon as he went out of the line-up the Penguins went on a run.

You just keep moving the goalposts for whatever way you can justify this.

Mikheyev does nothing for the Penguins, as if they'd acquire him in this kind of swap, they'd just immediately be trying to find a way out of his deal. If Mikheyev filled any sort of short-term role for the Penguins, I could easily see a justification for this. But he doesn't. They need to move out from Smith's deal so they can add another top-9 winger to play with Crosby, swapping Smith for Mikheyev accomplishes nothing towards that and it gives them a winger with an extra year.

I'm absolutely fine with swapping Graves for another bad contract, but Mikheyev is absolutely not the kind of guy you do that with. Go talk to Carolina and see if they'd do this exact deal for Kotkaniemi (so Smith at $3 million and Graves for Kotkaniemi), I can easily justify that because Kotkaniemi actually fills a need for the team.

 

[Gurglesons]

You just keep moving the goalposts for whatever way you can justify this.

Mikheyev does nothing for the Penguins, as if they'd acquire him in this kind of swap, they'd just immediately be trying to find a way out of his deal. If Mikheyev filled any sort of short-term role for the Penguins, I could easily see a justification for this. But he doesn't. They need to move out from Smith's deal so they can add another top-9 winger to play with Crosby, swapping Smith for Mikheyev accomplishes nothing towards that and it gives them a winger with an extra year.

I'm absolutely fine with swapping Graves for another bad contract, but Mikheyev is absolutely not the kind of guy you do that with. Go talk to Carolina and see if they'd do this exact deal for Kotkaniemi (so Smith at $3 million and Graves for Kotkaniemi), I can easily justify that because Kotkaniemi actually fills a need for the team.

Mikheyev was recovering from an injury all season. I’d rather take a bet on him finding a Carl Hagelin like role with the Pens over Ryan Graves suddenly turning into an effective contract. Getting out of Smith’s deal too is just icing on the cake.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Mikheyev was recovering from an injury all season. I’d rather take a bet on him finding a Carl Hagelin like role with the Pens over Ryan Graves suddenly turning into an effective contract. Getting out of Smith’s deal too is just icing on the cake.

Absolutely moronic take.

I've already explained ad-nauseam why it makes no sense for the Penguins. If you want to ignore those reasons, I guess you do you.

 

[Gurglesons]

Absolutely moronic take.

I've already explained ad-nauseam why it makes no sense for the Penguins. If you want to ignore those reasons, I guess you do you.

Not really. Penguins are saying yes to this deal every day of the week. Losing term and cap line this usually would require significant additions as we saw with the Karlsson trade.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And to clarify any Canucks fans thinking me saying no for the Penguins means this is a good deal for them, I think this deal makes no sense for them because they're not getting nearly enough value to justify taking on Graves' deal. I think Smith straight up for Mikheyev isn't all that far off in value, maybe Smith had a slight advantage due to having 1 less year but it's a pretty marginal difference. Smith's value at $3 million is probably only a 3rd, so this deal is basically Graves and a 3rd for Mikheyev. I don't think anyone would argue that's a good deal for the Canucks.

I'm just saying that it doesn't make any sense for the Penguins because bad teams don't sink value to get out of bad deals. They're far better off either just trading Smith at $3 million for that 3rd and keeping Graves or trying to combine Smith at $3 million and Graves for either a better player with a worse contract (Huberdeau) or a similarly bad contract that fills a need for the Penguins (Kotkaniemi). This deal has the Penguins getting the better bad deal with Mikheyev, but there really isn't much of a reason for them to be targeting that. Whether a bad deal is 2 years versus 5 years doesn't particularly matter because the Penguins are going to suck in 3 years regardless.

The Canucks shouldn't be committing to bringing in a player coming off a bad year that is signed for an additional 5 years, while the Penguins shouldn't be sinking value to get out of a bad deal for a better but still bad deal. I just don't think it makes sense for either side.

 

[biturbo19]

I know Penguins fans are upset with how poor Graves was last year, and even Dubas noted that Graves had a bad year, but I'm also not really seeing any sort of benefit for them to move him in a negative value type of move. They haven't made the playoffs in either of the last 2 years and their big guns aren't getting any younger. Unless the Penguins are trading Graves for a better player with a worse contract (like Huberdeau for example) or getting assets for swapping him for a worse contract, there's really not much of a reason to move him.

No sort of bad deals matter for the Penguins in 3+ years anyway, so I have no issues with getting an awful long-term deal for a better player today or getting some picks for taking a worse contract. But paying to get out of his deal, even if the kind of payment is something like "lose $2 million in cap space and downgrade your roster"? Like what's the point there?

The kind of deals I'd be fine with regarding Graves are like Graves for Kotkaniemi, Graves+ for PLD or Graves+ for Huberdeau. If those aren't available, I don't really see any sort of reason to move him.

I mean...Mikheyev had a terrible season and still had more points than KK last year. Wasn't that far off PLD either even. He also had literally an almost identical number of even strength points despite playing about twenty less games.

I think you're underrating Mikheyev as a quality Top-9 Winger. He's frustrating, but he's big and fast and his finishing ability is pathetic...but he still gets there and creates chances.

He's Tyler Myers, but dumber and with no upside.



The idea with acquiring PLD and Kotkaniemi is dumping cap and getting a piece you can potentially move in a few years for some type of return.

Ryan Graves is never returning anything. If you can get out of the contract you do it as quickly as possible. It's Jack Johnson 2.0.

Yeah. That pretty much aligns with my impression of Graves to some extent at least. I don't think he's full Giraffe, but he's somewhere in that mix between Myers and Zadorov and maybe better than either in the right situation. He's that sort of defenceman though...and that's where the Penguins messed up thinking he was some stable "stay at home" guy just because he's tall or something. But that can still be a really useful defenceman in the right role.



But i am affeered i have inadvertently stumbled upon a much deeper inter-penguin squabble.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean...Mikheyev had a terrible season and still had more points than KK last year. Wasn't that far off PLD either even. He also had literally an almost identical number of even strength points despite playing about twenty less games.

I think you're underrating Mikheyev as a quality Top-9 Winger. He's frustrating, but he's big and fast and his finishing ability is pathetic...but he still gets there and creates chances.

But again, the Penguins don't need a "quality top-9 winger". They need a 3C or a top line winger. Kotkaniemi makes sense because he can fill that 3C role while PLD has huge upside that Mikheyev doesn't have.

Like I posted on the last page, this should be their forward group next year:

XXXX-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
O'Connor-XXXXXX-Puustinen
Poulin-Eller-Acciari

Mikheyev doesn't fill any role here. Whether he's better than Kotkaniemi or not isn't relevant to that.

 

[Johnsie19]

I'd rather have Mikheyev for another 2 years than Graves for another 5, maybe if the Pens retain a lot

Sorry why wouldn't you want a top 4, under 30, huge, right shot defensive dman for 5 yrs?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sorry why wouldn't you want a top 4, under 30, huge, right shot defensive dman for 5 yrs?

Graves isn't a right shot, nor is he really a "top-4" defenseman.

 

[Johnsie19]

I mean, you're taking on Ryan Graves.

That contract is atrocious from the moment it was signed.

How is 4.5 mil for a top 4 RD atrocious?

 

[biturbo19]

But again, the Penguins don't need a "quality top-9 winger". They need a 3C or a top line winger. Kotkaniemi makes sense because he can fill that 3C role while PLD has huge upside that Mikheyev doesn't have.

I mean...i'd disagree on the idea of Kotkaniemi being a quality 3C. He's a tweener. He's a very bad 2C and a useless 3C. I don't know what his role even is, on a contending team.


PLD...i can understand the idea. When he gives a shit...he's a Top-6C and a good one too. But that also seems like a super awkward fit with the Penguins given their current setup. Is he really going to push one of Croz/Geno to the wing? Like...no. Obviously not. So he'll be just as annoyed and disinterested as he's been in LA.


Mikheyev's upside is baby smol. But if you have a guy your GM likes who is responsible 2-ways and can put together 20G and score at the same sort of rate as those "high upside" guys despite less games and basically no powerplay time...that's not "nothing".


Though again, i agree that Reilly Smith is the more talented player. That's why i'd want him as a gamble...despite his aging and play trending in the wrong direction. But it's still very much a gamble. And again...the Knights sent him to Pittsburgh for free, just to get rid of his salary. So it's not like people are lining up to spend assets on him...and that was before a pretty terrible season.

 

[Johnsie19]

Graves isn't a right shot, nor is he really a "top-4" defenseman.

Oh fair enough. Left shot. Been a top 4 dman on three different teams, over 5 seasons. So definition of top 4.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh fair enough. Left shot. Been a top 4 dman on three different teams, over 5 seasons. So definition of top 4.

Not really.

 

[Rowlet]

Sorry why wouldn't you want a top 4, under 30, huge, right shot defensive dman for 5 yrs?

I would! Let me know where I can find one, because Graves is a bottom pairing LHD.

 

[biturbo19]

Oh fair enough. Left shot. Been a top 4 dman on three different teams, over 5 seasons. So definition of top 4.

I mean...he's generally been every bit the "tweener" Zadorov has been. He doesn't have the mean streak, as someone else suggested. But he's got the same sort of "attacking" mentality. Same sort of size and skating.

He had that run with Marino where his chemistry basically made him a stud shutdown pairing guy. But he's risky in that he's generally been...inconsistent.


And if Zadorov is gonna be a $5-6M defenceman...Graves at $4.5M is a lot easier to swallow.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean...i'd disagree on the idea of Kotkaniemi being a quality 3C. He's a tweener. He's a very bad 2C and a useless 3C. I don't know what his role even is, on a contending team.


PLD...i can understand the idea. When he gives a shit...he's a Top-6C and a good one too. But that also seems like a super awkward fit with the Penguins given their current setup. Is he really going to push one of Croz/Geno to the wing? Like...no. Obviously not. So he'll be just as annoyed and disinterested as he's been in LA.


Mikheyev's upside is baby smol. But if you have a guy your GM likes who is responsible 2-ways and can put together 20G and score at the same sort of rate as those "high upside" guys despite less games and basically no powerplay time...that's not "nothing".

But again, I keep posting their winger lineup. The only spot they have in the top-9 for a winger is with Crosby. They don't have a role for Mikheyev. Maybe he's not nothing on his own, but he serves no role on the Penguins because they simply do not have a spot for him.

Their 2nd line winger duo is Bunting-Rakell and their 3rd line winger duo is O'Connor-Puustinen. They need a top line LW, but I'd vomit if they decided Mikheyev was that guy.

 

[Johnsie19]

Not really.

Literally yes. Not sorta but exact definition top 4.

 

[Johnsie19]

I would! Let me know where I can find one, because Graves is a bottom pairing LHD.

He's been a top 4 every season of his career except his rookie yr.