Your Wildly Outrageous (History of) Hockey Opinions...

WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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Can the NBA crowd time their noise to hurt communication of one team more than the others ? Does not seem to affect free throw percentage... In football yes, noise obviously can be a big factor.
Stadium announcer will pump in and get the crowd going with "DE-FENSE" chants, and the fans behind a basket will waive their arms and make noise. I would say it's mostly just a case of feeding off the momentum/excitement for the home team. Crowds are very close to the court in basketball and there's a lot of scoring so lots of reason to be making noise.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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Stadium announcer will pump in and get the crowd going with "DE-FENSE" chants, and the fans behind a basket will waive their arms and make noise. I would say it's mostly just a case of feeding off the momentum/excitement for the home team. Crowds are very close to the court in basketball and there's a lot of scoring so lots of reason to be making noise.
Also without being a short burst sport with fast change, it is a bit of deep endurance sport that we can see more an effect of encouragement and shame...

But the fans trying to disturb play is ultra concentrated during free throws and those seem virtually the same (could be due to scoring effect too, away team is behind at the end of game, take fools, home late game tired player shoot more of them...) And imagine during free flowing play, not seeing-hearing the crowd much is 10 time easier.

Should look if the home team's FT attempts advantage in the nba exist for the first 3 quarter... and how much you can calibrate your play in that league with how it goes in that regard.
 
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Voight

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Feb 8, 2012
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Perhaps my most controversial opinion.

We should move to 6 pm local starts instead of 7 pm local starts.

Getting home after 10 pm just isn't feasible for working people and is downright impossible for children.

That isn't feasible in any major city with a downtown arena. Good luck getting to the MSG, Scotiabank Arena, United Center, TD Garden etc from other areas of the city during peak rush hour.
 

WarriorofTime

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Also without being a short burst sport with fast change, it is a bit of deep endurance sport that we can see more an effect of encouragement and shame...

But the fans trying to disturb play is ultra concentrated during free throws and those seem virtually the same (could be due to scoring effect too, away team is behind at the end of game, take fools, home late game tired player shoot more of them...) And imagine during free flowing play, not seeing-hearing the crowd much is 10 time easier.

Should look if the home team's FT attempts advantage in the nba exist for the first 3 quarter... and how much you can calibrate your play in that league with how it goes in that regard.
NBA players should be formulaic enough with regards to free throws/able to block out the noise that it wouldn't effect them nearly as much. Home/Road will be an even bigger distinction in college basketball where players are less experienced, more prone to emotional swings, but that doesn't go totally away in NBA.
 

Voight

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Carey Price is the most overrated goalie in history.

His 2015 season was great - but Habs fans pump it up like its the best season ever by a goalie (post lockout, Kipper, Thomas and Hank have comparable seasons off the top of my head).

Aside from that season, he was nominated for the Vezina only one other season. Two Vezina nominations is pitiful for a goalie some like to call one of the best ever. Ben Bishop for example, played less seasons and was nominated for the Vezina 3x.
 

MadLuke

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Brodeur first vezina was with the Pat Burns-Niedermayer-Rafalski-Stevens-Madden devils

Last one were the Sutter Paul Martin-Salvador-Mottau-White old Madden, Gionta-Parise devils.

Still the same franchise, but outside him and Elias almost 2 different teams completely. Vezina can be a reputation award too, obviously, but 1995-2003-2008, that long amount of time for it to be special to play on a franchise that have not a single other than him constant player, not a playing with Lidstrom or same coach for your whole career situation.
 
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MadLuke

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Carey Price is the most overrated goalie in history.

His 2015 season was great - but Habs fans pump it up like its the best season ever by a goalie (post lockout, Kipper, Thomas and Hank have comparable seasons off the top of my head).

Aside from that season, he was nominated for the Vezina only one other season. Two Vezina nominations is pitiful for a goalie some like to call one of the best ever. Ben Bishop for example, played less seasons and was nominated for the Vezina 3x.
That could seem at first a bit of contradiction, it must be really bad to have this kind of vezina track record and be overrated at the same time.

Brodeur has 4 and it does not cound for much according to the person below.

Habs fan does not say he had some particularly all time great career but that he was one of the best talent ever, like someone arguing that it was the case for Kariya. (there still some Halak > Price that survive too)

22 to 29 Price was quite something (and for some stretch when he played after that has well).

Will just stay this, during Price time when he was healthy and playing well all kind of weird stuff tended to happen, Montreal finishing first in the east, overperforming in the playoff all the time, when he was not (or Halak getting in flames) usually absolutely nothing happened.

Maybe he was so spectacular to look (control, rebound, facing puck perfectly) that he can be overrated if people put him above Lundqvist-Quick-Vaselevskiy, but he was really elite, top 5, but there was a calming element when he was in control that was suiting, and it was hard to put him out of his games (when he was playing, which ultimatly was quite the if)
 
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BigBadBruins7708

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Pietrangelo is the best playoff defender that doesn't get the historical love he should.

One of the most dependable playoff shut down guys post lockout who logged 30 minutes a night and carried 2 mediocre at best goalies to Cups. First in 2019 he made Binnington look like Quick the. Turned around and did it again in Vegas a few years later making a 3rd stringer in Hill look like Hasek.

It's no coincidence that Binnington and the Blues went from a WCF and Cup in seasons to fighting for a playoff spot when he left and Vegas went from underachieving to a conference final and a Cup. Hell, I'd go as far as to say Parayko should give him some of that money STL gave him since it's clear Pietrangelo propped him up
 
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Michael Farkas

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Heh, once again we're not looking at the same game haha (which I'm not saying to start a war, or even a conversation necessarily...it's just funny that I was talking to someone a little while ago about a prospect in this draft who plays just like Petro, and I said, "Petro didn't get enough discredit for how easy he is to play against sometimes just like [prospect].")

I'll take Theodore over Pietrangelo pretty clearly. Theodore is more dynamic and I don't think Petro gets enough discredit for how leaky he's gotten defensively over the years. A lot of stuff happens when he's on the ice. A lot of positive stuff happens when Theodore is out there for me. I'll take Theodore all day. I like Petro, he's a player, no question. But this was easy for me. Montour was unreal. I've always had time for him, even for his defensive woes, but he's really quite a talent and he can play for days.

 

BigBadBruins7708

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Heh, once again we're not looking at the same game haha (which I'm not saying to start a war, or even a conversation necessarily...it's just funny that I was talking to someone a little while ago about a prospect in this draft who plays just like Petro, and I said, "Petro didn't get enough discredit for how easy he is to play against sometimes just like [prospect].")




True he wasn't as sharp in 23 and to be fair the Finals last year wasn't particularly close either.

But 2019 he was a menace, particularly in the Finals against the Bruins. There were more than a few times where I thought "this is what other fans must've felt going against Chara". It felt like he was always on the ice and always had his nose in the play
 
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Overrated

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We didn't count KHL teams in 2009. They were taking some quality pieces too. They had money.
They definitely took away some talent. Not much (mostly washed up players) and not for long (KHL now is considered a complete joke).

That's why I keep asking (conversationally, as I know the work needs to be done because no one has the answer right now) - "why do we insist on counting WHA teams along side NHL teams?"
I agree with this. I don't necessarily do it. Although if we did a bunch of NHL vs KHL today I bet even the worst NHL teams would likely beat the best KHL ones or at least be competitive with them. On the other hand WHA was able to compete with the NHL head to head. Yes they barely played the best teams like Bruins, Sabres, Canadiens, Flyers and later Islanders but against all other they were competitive and in fact won most of their games.

6 players in the top20 came from the WHA. You would not get this result today even if we could merge all of the world's talent into the NHL. I am not sure whether there would be a single player in the top100 coming over from non-NHL. In fact I think the NHL today likely captures l~99% of the world's talent pool.


But one reason why we didn't see a catastrophic downturn in game play from the last couple years of the O6 era to the first few years of expansion ("DOUBLED!!!") is because of the talent level and the development route. The Sponsorship Era - tangled web of intrigue and trickery as it is - proved to be a really useful path to get well-rounded, mature, developed players into the professional circuit.

As that started to get chipped away (not so much '63, but really '66 to '69), the effects started to show shortly thereafter that mini-generation, if you will. Of course, the number of teams continued to climb, fiddling with eligibility ages didn't help either...that's clear.
Hey I don't agree with the way US sports are run - if it were my way I'd get rid of both the draft and the salary cap and would introduce relegation. Let the best team win! Nevertheless I personally have some doubts about how negatively these changes affected the skill level of players. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that it severely degraded the skill level to such a point the senior league (NHL) became significantly worse. If anything other things worked in the very opposite direction - the ever growing money and status from becoming a professional athlete which most certainly made a lot more people more serious about pursuing such an option.

When there were 3x more Russians in the NHL in 1999 (or whatever) than there are now...was it better? And now, it's worse? Of course not. Vladimir Chebaturkin did not improve the league. Pavel Bure did though.
Well in 98/99 61% of players were Canadian. When sorted by PPG 40% of the top50 highest PPG players were Canadian. It makes sense, no coach would risk a European bottom tier talent who might not be able to adjust to the NHL. The Europeans in general took more jobs out of the upper half than the bottom half of the league.

Also yes I think the league was stronger back then. Hockey (most sports really) is in a decline.

And if it turns out - after proper evaluation - that 1975 NHL was worse than 1981 NHL, then I'll wear a t-shirt that says that...that's not my feeling right now, but it could be...I just want to get it right. I don't care whose idea it is...
How does one go around to prove that? There was a poster a few pages ago who claimed exactly that and that whenever he watched a game from then t was atrocious. Well you think it's better than in the early 80s after watching the same games. It's just an opinion against an opinion in the end.
 

BadgerBruce

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Maybe not an “outrageous” opinion, but definitely a minority view …

The sponsorship and C-card system — there’s no good reason to have one without the other — was an extraordinarily effective way for NHL clubs to develop young players and was much more effective than today’s NHL entry draft system and the absurd “priority selection” drafts most of the North American junior leagues use to lay claim to kids.

I’ll pick two team near the end of the junior sponsorship era — the Niagara Falls Flyers and the Oshawa Generals, both sponsored by the (at the time) lowly Boston Bruins.

In 1962-63, 16 year-old Derek Sanderson was a rookie on Niagara Falls, playing just 2 games. That same year, 1962, 14 year-old Bobby Orr was a rookie with Oshawa.

Not a bad start, wouldn’t you agree?

Now here are some of their junior teammates, all of whom were signed to C-cards with the Bruins: Bernie Parent, Doug Favell, Dunc Wilson, Phil Myre, Wayne Cashman, Bill Goldsworthy, Gary Dornhoefer, Don Awrey, Jean Pronovost, Don Marcotte, Rosie Paiement, Jim Lorentz, Ricky Ley, Terry Crisp, Phil Roberto, Tom Webster, Don Tannahill, and Ron Schock. Out west, Estevan developed Joe Watson, Ross Lonsberry, and Jim Harrison.

The kicker? The Bruins stunk for most of the 1960s. They weren’t particularly good at signing guys to C-cards — frankly, they were probably 6th out of 6 in terms of developing NHLers. But look again at that list: 4 guys on Team Canada ‘72, a goalie only Jesus out-saved in the early-70s, and a half-dozen guys who won Broad Street Bullies Stanley Cups with Philly. Can you imagine an NHL team today drafting that well over a 5-year period? And for what it’s worth, I didn’t cherry-pick the Bruins — you want to see who the Habs, Hawks, or even the Rangers had on their sponsored junior teams in the same time frame?

The junior sponsorship and C-card system had MANY problems, but if measured purely on the basis of NHL teams developing NHL talent, it worked much better than the entry draft and junior hockey “priority selection” systems that replaced it.
 

wingerdinger

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Oct 21, 2018
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Maybe not an “outrageous” opinion, but definitely a minority view …

The sponsorship and C-card system — there’s no good reason to have one without the other — was an extraordinarily effective way for NHL clubs to develop young players and was much more effective than today’s NHL entry draft system and the absurd “priority selection” drafts most of the North American junior leagues use to lay claim to kids.

I’ll pick two team near the end of the junior sponsorship era — the Niagara Falls Flyers and the Oshawa Generals, both sponsored by the (at the time) lowly Boston Bruins.

In 1962-63, 16 year-old Derek Sanderson was a rookie on Niagara Falls, playing just 2 games. That same year, 1962, 14 year-old Bobby Orr was a rookie with Oshawa.

Not a bad start, wouldn’t you agree?

Now here are some of their junior teammates, all of whom were signed to C-cards with the Bruins: Bernie Parent, Doug Favell, Dunc Wilson, Phil Myre, Wayne Cashman, Bill Goldsworthy, Gary Dornhoefer, Don Awrey, Jean Pronovost, Don Marcotte, Rosie Paiement, Jim Lorentz, Ricky Ley, Terry Crisp, Phil Roberto, Tom Webster, Don Tannahill, and Ron Schock. Out west, Estevan developed Joe Watson, Ross Lonsberry, and Jim Harrison.

The kicker? The Bruins stunk for most of the 1960s. They weren’t particularly good at signing guys to C-cards — frankly, they were probably 6th out of 6 in terms of developing NHLers. But look again at that list: 4 guys on Team Canada ‘72, a goalie only Jesus out-saved in the early-70s, and a half-dozen guys who won Broad Street Bullies Stanley Cups with Philly. Can you imagine an NHL team today drafting that well over a 5-year period? And for what it’s worth, I didn’t cherry-pick the Bruins — you want to see who the Habs, Hawks, or even the Rangers had on their sponsored junior teams in the same time frame?

The junior sponsorship and C-card system had MANY problems, but if measured purely on the basis of NHL teams developing NHL talent, it worked much better than the entry draft and junior hockey “priority selection” systems that replaced it.
Dont you think that has anything to do with there only being 6 teams at the time. Not a lot of options out there for players.
 

Michael Farkas

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They definitely took away some talent. Not much (mostly washed up players) and not for long (KHL now is considered a complete joke).
"Not for long" accurately describes the WHA situation too haha
I agree with this. I don't necessarily do it. Although if we did a bunch of NHL vs KHL today I bet even the worst NHL teams would likely beat the best KHL ones or at least be competitive with them. On the other hand WHA was able to compete with the NHL head to head. Yes they barely played the best teams like Bruins, Sabres, Canadiens, Flyers and later Islanders but against all other they were competitive and in fact won most of their games.
KHL today? Yeah, I wouldn't broach the topic about today. I'm not convinced the KHL is a top 3 league in the world at this point, much less one that could cobble something interesting together in this context.

I also see little reason to give any credence to exhibition matches.
6 players in the top20 came from the WHA. You would not get this result today even if we could merge all of the world's talent into the NHL. I am not sure whether there would be a single player in the top100 coming over from non-NHL. In fact I think the NHL today likely captures l~99% of the world's talent pool.
If I gave some people money out of my wallet would they stop with the whole "6 of the top 20" thing. This is a very weird quirk where the best player in the world happened to be a teenager and teenagers could only work in the WHA (or whatever). We've recently been down this road a few times...we're talking about the competitiveness of the league as a whole. The top 20 scorers of the WHA were majority failures either right away or within a couple years. Right around the time where the NHL looked notably better.

And like, even if we take the "6 of 20" thing at face value, why do the WHA Truthers (WHAT) get to double dip with that point? The only reason why anyone even remembers the WHA is because a handful of names we remember jumped ship for a bit. That's them. That's the six. (not literally, no one "lawyer" me here)

No one says that the WHA had no talent. I think we're all aware of the notion that they bought some good stuff while the gettin' was good.
Hey I don't agree with the way US sports are run - if it were my way I'd get rid of both the draft and the salary cap and would introduce relegation. Let the best team win! Nevertheless I personally have some doubts about how negatively these changes affected the skill level of players. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that it severely degraded the skill level to such a point the senior league (NHL) became significantly worse. If anything other things worked in the very opposite direction - the ever growing money and status from becoming a professional athlete which most certainly made a lot more people more serious about pursuing such an option.


Well in 98/99 61% of players were Canadian. When sorted by PPG 40% of the top50 highest PPG players were Canadian. It makes sense, no coach would risk a European bottom tier talent who might not be able to adjust to the NHL. The Europeans in general took more jobs out of the upper half than the bottom half of the league.

Also yes I think the league was stronger back then. Hockey (most sports really) is in a decline.
I don't want to go too far off topic here with this. I will say, though, isn't the quality of Russian (for instance) over here now of higher quality than in 1999? I feel like there were bottom six and bottom pair Europeans in the NHL in the DPE...and now, most Russians are impact players and the other one is Yakov Trenin haha

Interesting that you think the league is better in 1999 than now. I'm pleased by the dismissal of linear growth undertones that some folks adhere to. But on the flip side, I'm a little surprised. For another thread perhaps...
How does one go around to prove that? There was a poster a few pages ago who claimed exactly that and that whenever he watched a game from then t was atrocious. Well you think it's better than in the early 80s after watching the same games. It's just an opinion against an opinion in the end.
"Prove" is probably not the bar for something like this.

By way of example, I submit a list for my scouting region. Can I prove that my order is correct? Not as such...but I can go into excessive detail about my position and my reasoning and back it with video evidence...ultimately, you're going to agree with my list or placement or you're not. But you don't have any "proof" either...so, it's just best case wins. No smoking guns. No shortcuts.

And maybe it's an unbalanced league situation, right? That kind of winks to what I was saying before with "how many NHL teams were there in the WHA really?" full well knowing that the, say, 1975 Washington Capitals aren't exactly the belle of the ball either. But no matter how you slice it, it's still going to come down to player evaluation. It'd really take some effort...
 
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KillerMillerTime

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With today's training and infrastructure a 1974-75 and 1975-76 USA Jr. Team would have been better than all but Canada. The 1976-77 USA Jr. Team competitive with USSR also.

How's that for outrageous.
 

BadgerBruce

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Dont you think that has anything to do with there only being 6 teams at the time. Not a lot of options out there for players.
Players were free to sign C-cards (or A or B-cards) with any NHL team they wanted, and many, many players turned down offers and agreed to others. Isn’t that a lot of “choice” — at least when looked at side-by-side to draft systems?
 

KillerMillerTime

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With today's training and infrastructure a 1974-75 and 1975-76 USA Jr. Team would have been better than all but Canada. The 1976-77 USA Jr. Team competitive with USSR also.

How's that for outrageous.
1974-75

G - Baker (2nd G pick '77 NHL Draft; 1st US goalie since Brimsek to win SCPO Round)
Skidmore

D - O'Connell
Larson
Morrow
Brownschidle
Anderson
Baker

C Howe - Eaves - Debol - Carlson

W Jensen - Holmgren - Fidler - Rowe - Miller - Morrison - Burns - Hansen
 
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The Panther

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How does one go around to prove that? There was a poster a few pages ago who claimed exactly that and that whenever he watched a game from then t was atrocious. Well you think it's better than in the early 80s after watching the same games. It's just an opinion against an opinion in the end.
I think a big distinguishing point between hockey of today (I mean, NHL level) and hockey of the 1970s / 1980s is the "standard deviation" in quality of play across the League.

What I mean is, in the period roughly 1972 to 1983 (?), there were massive, massive differences in the quality of the given NHL game, depending on various factors -- the biggest one being the quality of the two teams on the ice. But there were other factors, too, such as fatigue on long road-trips, back-to-back games, and so on (most of which are lesser or non-factors today).

A few years ago, I was watching some of a Quebec @ Toronto game from around 1980 or 1981, and it was just stunningly awful hockey. John Garrett was in net ('nuff said), and the goalies were atrociously incompetent (albeit they were clearly having a worse-than-average night). The players were a mixed bag, but the general level of play was unimpressive.

Then, I also watched game 1 of the Edmonton @ Montreal 1981 playoff series, and it was amazingly good hockey -- very akin to hockey of today in style and defensive strategy (minus the overwhelming shot-blocking of today).

The two games were akin to watching two completely different leagues of hockey... but it was the same league in the same season (more or less).

This year, maybe a San Jose @ Chicago game wouldn't look great as compared to the upcoming Florida / New York series or whatever, but the disparity won't be nearly as great.

Point being, if one wanted to make some final judgement on whether 1975 NHL or 1981 NHL was worse / stronger, I think one would have to watch A LOT of games from each era featuring all the different teams in all different situations, because just watching five or six games from each period isn't enough. The level of disparity was wildly different, even from game to game within one season.
 
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