ATD Chat Thread XIX

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Elvis P

London Calling
Dec 10, 2007
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I picked 3rd in a 3-man draft where Gretzky and Gordie are out. So far, my team looks good:

HC Scotty Bowman

Hull - Beliveau - Richard
Kharlamov - Morenz - LaFleur
Firsov - Nighbor - Makarov
Mahovlich - Mikita - Cook

Harvey -
Kelly -
Fetisov -

Roy​
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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3-man draft?

Hasek.

Orr.
Bourque.
Potvin.
Shore.

Lemieux.
Jagr.
Crosby.
Ovechkin.

3-team draft? You are hooped given your depth options (thinking 9 and 99 was the only obstacle).

Don't get me started on line combos: Kharlamov with Morenz and Lafleur?

Limp.biscuits.

A Messier-Clarke-Cook line would buzz through that!
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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Somebody just dug up a 2007 post of mine where i said Crosby's style of play and constitution isn't conducive to ever winning a Rocket Richard trophy. Haha. Yeah he has won it twice since. But my point about style of play stood somewhat as after that Ovechkin went on to win it 9 times, as a more predictable role model for that award.
 

ImporterExporter

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Somebody just dug up a 2007 post of mine where i said Crosby's style of play and constitution isn't conducive to ever winning a Rocket Richard trophy. Haha. Yeah he has won it twice since. But my point about style of play stood somewhat as after that Ovechkin went on to win it 9 times, as a more predictable role model for that award.

It wasn't exactly a bold prediction to say Ovechkin would win more Rocket's or score more goals in an overall sense.

"Constitution" as if Sid is a p***y, which is exactly what the nudnik detractors cowl about and have since forever. Sid has never shied away from the net or corners (hasn't helped in avoiding injury), and by all accounts has been one of the toughest players in league history to get off the puck. His balance and lower body strength is legendary and that's the opinion of actual hockey people and peers. And the eye test.

Crosby would have also won a 3rd Rocket the year Steckel ran him in the outdoor game. Was on pace for 64 goals halfway through the year. Nobody else was even close. A lost Hart, Rocket, Ross, Lindsay, etc, etc.

He's 36 years old today and is on pace for 50 goals at the 1/3 mark of the year. Only Matthews has more at ES. He's 60% in the dot, a net positive player with fantastic possession metrics (almost always has been) and actual defensive acumen that has steadily improved as his career arc has bent towards the end.

Sid could have won the Rocket more but has never, ever, been a shoot first guy, which again, makes the fact he's won it multiple times (despite missing a massive chunk of his prime due to injuries and lockouts) all the more impressive.

Consider Sid has never shot the puck on net 300 times in a single year. Ovechkin has cleared that 15 times and been as high as 528.

Ovechkin has led the league in shot attempts 11 times and been 2nd, 3 more times. He's litterally already the all time leader in that department.

Crosby, despite winning the Rocket twice, has finished in the top 10 in shots ONCE (09/10).

Ovechkin has MISSED 2,803 shots since his rookie year. The next closest guy? Brent Burns at 1,748. Ovechkin has literally missed the net more than a thousand times vs 2nd place. Crosby? 1,325. Less than half.

When you combine shots on net and missed variet Ovechkin is at 9,274. Crosby is 5,237. It's mind boggling how big a gap that is.

Who has the most EN goal since 05-06? Ovechkin at 56. Nobody is even close with 2nd place being Marchand at 33. Sid is nearly half Ovi's total at 30.

Say you win a Rocket by 3 but needed 100 more shots than 2nd place to get there, is it really THAT impressive a win? Not in my book. Because in my book, you don't simply take raw totals at face value without analyzing other factors, like linemates, which again, historically speaking favors Ovechkin in terms of talent played with at ES. How about PP time and usage?

Beyond the folks who missed time during WWII, there wouldn't be anyone who's missed as much of their prime as Sid. Despite that, his legacy as a top 5/10 player ever is secure. Right now. Without another game played if it came to that.

Ovechkin just scored his first goal in over a month. He has 6 in 30 games. 2 of which came with no goalie in net. He'll hang around until he's 40/41 to break the record, needing well over 2000 more shots than Gretzky did, needing far more games played, while winning a lot less than Gretzky or Sid, both in the NHL and internationally.

Sid is a hockey player. Ovechkin is a goal scorer and entertainer (at least post 2010). I've never felt more comfortable making that statement, especially looking at how they've aged and matured within the game. Read what players and coaches have said over the years. Leadership (going to finish as longest tenured captain in NHL history assuming he plays 2 or more seasons) and winning (3 Cups in 4 tries and a slew of gold internationally) are trademarks of Sid's legacy beyond stats.

There is no hockey world where I take 8 over 87. Not if winning is your primary focus.
 

VanIslander

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Again, the point was about the Rocket Richard trophy and style of play. Nothing else. The guy with the pistol versus those with a machine gun.

# of Rocket Richard trophies since 2007:

Ovechkin 9
Crosby 2
 

Johnny Engine

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Jul 29, 2009
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On one hand, I don't think IE gives enough credit to Ovechkin for getting as many shots as he does. You look at his career shooting percentage and take guys with similar marks - Perry and Tarasenko are peers in that respect - I'm sure if they had a chance to get 500 puck on net in a season they'd take it, and they'd score a lot more if they could. He's a much better goal scorer than those guys, and that's a big reason why, as opposed to someone like Draisaitl who's the opposite in that he takes half as many shots and 18% go in.

The thing though that really gives me pause about OVs late career sniping is that the Caps' power play hasn't been helped by it nearly as much as everyone pretends. Since 2019-20, they've been 17th in the league in PP%, but if you bring it up to almost anyone, you always hear that 1) it's unstoppable and 2) it's stupid that PKers leave that one timer unguarded because clearly they're getting eaten alive that way.

That, more than anything, paints him as a bit more of a goal suck during that period of time than one would like him to be.
 

ImporterExporter

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On one hand, I don't think IE gives enough credit to Ovechkin for getting as many shots as he does. You look at his career shooting percentage and take guys with similar marks - Perry and Tarasenko are peers in that respect - I'm sure if they had a chance to get 500 puck on net in a season they'd take it, and they'd score a lot more if they could. He's a much better goal scorer than those guys, and that's a big reason why, as opposed to someone like Draisaitl who's the opposite in that he takes half as many shots and 18% go in.

The thing though that really gives me pause about OVs late career sniping is that the Caps' power play hasn't been helped by it nearly as much as everyone pretends. Since 2019-20, they've been 17th in the league in PP%, but if you bring it up to almost anyone, you always hear that 1) it's unstoppable and 2) it's stupid that PKers leave that one timer unguarded because clearly they're getting eaten alive that way.

That, more than anything, paints him as a bit more of a goal suck during that period of time than one would like him to be.

However, the argument can be made that the Capitals have always focused on catering to Ovechkin in the offensive zone. It's not exactly a poor strategy given Ovechkin is who he is, but the MO has often left them exposed defensively and as 8 has slowed down and become less engaged physically, he is much easier to defend.

Corey Perry and Tarasenko weren't far and away the best players on their respective teams. They had to play within a system that wasn't built around them.

Hence I don't think the argument that the bulging shot totals = success is a sound one.

I'll always maintain that not every shot is a good one. This concept exists across multiple sports, like basketball and soccer. You regularly hear announcers and analysts talk about those bad shots and how it killed possession, was the wrong decision, etc. They aren't wrong to do so, at least in some of the cases.

Why don't we hear that in hockey?

The staggering volume of shots Ovi takes is a testament to that thought process. How many times did he kill possession by simply letting an extremely low danger shot (from distance, nowhere near net) go?

My overall point is that Ovechkin, to some degree, is overrated in the sense he has far more opportunities to score goals because he's shooting the puck far more than anyone else. You can't score unless you shoot the puck and he does it at a vastly higher rate than anyone else.

Gretzky wasn't shot hogging. Sid wasn't. Lemieux scored 85 goals in 88/89 and finished 4th in overall shot attempts. Bossy won a pair of Rocket's and never finished higher than 4th in attempts. Selanne won both Rocket's finishing 8th and 10th in shot attempts.

Let's dig into shot attempts a bit more:

2005-06:

Ovechkin leads league in shots in his rooking campaign with 425. He finished T3rd (52) in goal scoring with Kovalchuk who scored 52 on just 323 shots.

Cheecho - 56/317 (17.7)
Jagr - 54/368 (14.7)
Ovechkin - 52/425 (12.2)

2006-07:

Ovechkin once again leads the league in shots with 392. He finished 4th (46) in goal scoring.

Lecavalier - 52/339 (15.3)
Heatley - 50/310 (16.1)
Selanne - 48/257 (18.7)
Ovechkin - 46/392 (11.7)

2007-08:

Ovechkin once again leads the league in shots with 446. 2nd place is nearly 100 shots less (Zetterberg) with 358. To be fair, Ovechkin did score 65 but his shooting % jump of 3-4 points and massive lead in shot volume propelled him there.

Ovechkin - 65/446 (14.6%)
Kovalchuk - 52/283 (18.4%)
Iginla - 50/338 (14.8%)
Malkin - 47/272 (17.3%)

-Essentially Ovechkin is Iginla. The former just shot a lot more. Funny, both those teams were bounced in the 1st round that year.

2008-09:

Ovechkin wins another shot title, in a landslide with 528. He shot just 10.8%. Eric Stall was the next closest shot total at 372.

Ovechkin 56/528 (10.6%)
Carter - 46/342 (13.5)
Parise - 45/364 (12.4)
Kovalchuk - 43/275 (15.6)
Vanek - 40/211 (19.0)
Staal - 40/372 (10.8)

2009-10:

Ovechkin wins another shot title. He finishes 2nd in goal scoring, behind Sid and Stammer. Ovi missed 10 games this year so given his larger shot volume would have cruised to another Rocket.

Stamkos - 51/297 (17.2)
Crosby - 51/298 (17.1)
Ovechkin - 50/368 (13.6)

In 2010-11, Crosby would score 32 goals in 41 games, before being ran in the outdoor game vs Washington. He'd miss most of the next 2 years. Ovechkin, that same year, scored 32 goals in 79 games. Don't tell me Sid couldn't be an absolute killer in the goal scoring department.

In 2011-12, Ovechkin would score 38 goals on 303 shots. 12.5%
In 2011-12, Stamkos would score 60 goals on 303 shots. 19.8%

These sort of trends continue on for the next decade. Multiple Rockets but vastly, vastly more shots (the gap really explodes when you factor in misses) than 2nd, 3rd place, etc.

Alas, shooting more is not always synonymous with winning. I'd wager without looking that Ovechkin's shares of his teams shot totals are quite a bit higher than anyone else playing today. Catering to a single player the way Washington has for nearly 2 decades hasn't produced the team results.

Outside of the year the Caps beat a first year expansion team in the finals, the results beyond raw goal totals is rather bleak for Ovechkin, certainly relative to the other all time greats that litter the top 10/20 lists by reputable hockey players.

And Ovechkin isn't Dionne in that he was/is a legendary player on a bad team(s). The Caps have routinely underperformed relative to their regular season accolades as a group.

Even Ray Bourque came into the league during an all time great dynasty (Islanders) who passed the torch, without gap, to the Oilers dynasty. The 90's saw the near dynastic Penguins, and then Red Wings/Devils power combo after that.

Bobby Hull is the obvious apples to apples comparison, given the style, goal scoring attributes, and similar team results, though Hull had the misfortune of playing during the Toe Blake era and Leafs dynasty, though he still made the finals 4 times, winning once, leading the playoffs in goals, 3 times. And he left the NHL at 33.

Sure, there were 6 teams vs 30ish today. The gauntlet to the Cup finals was much shorter in the 60's but the league was also much tighter in terms of talent and there were few give away games, unlike today, which routinely features 8, 10, 12 teams that are relative bottom feeders.
 

ImporterExporter

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Criticizing a winger for taking too many shots?

That's a new one.


That's the sound of the point flying right over your head bud.

Ovechkin is not a sniper. He's a volume scorer. Even my rudimentary outline shows that quite clearly. Winning goal scoring titles because you take vastly more shots than your peers is simply not all that impressive to me. It doesn't mean I think the guy is a bum or not worthy of ranking around Bobby Hull all time. Just not fawning over goal scoring totals that aren't as illustrious when you dig past the raw total.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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IE,...

The top-20 ever in terms of shots taken is #1 Ovechkin and no one else featured this century.

Bourque is 2nd because he gained the blueline and ruled it slapping pucks; Jagr is 3rd.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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Gretzky has scored so many more goals than everyone else not based on accuracy but on opportunity. Nobody my age thinks Grezky can shoot like Bossy or Kurri. But he weaves and dekes and makes goalies flop and dumps, or slaps unexpectedly.

Ovechkin, Bourque, Jagr.... have MUCH MORE volume... of shots and goals for players in their position, than anyone in the game today.
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
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Hence I don't think the argument that the bulging shot totals = success is a sound one.

I'll always maintain that not every shot is a good one. This concept exists across multiple sports, like basketball and soccer. You regularly hear announcers and analysts talk about those bad shots and how it killed possession, was the wrong decision, etc. They aren't wrong to do so, at least in some of the cases.

Why don't we hear that in hockey?

The staggering volume of shots Ovi takes is a testament to that thought process. How many times did he kill possession by simply letting an extremely low danger shot (from distance, nowhere near net) go?
So, first of all, that concept definitely exists in hockey, though it probably applies better to more limited players, second and third liners. As a Leafs fan, not once did I worry that Phil Kessel was shooting too much, even though he had double the amount of shots during his Leafs tenure than the next closest guy, and never, ever, ever made any effort to get into the "dirty" areas and kept taking wristers from 40 feet out. His ability justified it, and his (suboptimal) team situation demanded it. Jason Blake on the other hand, if you've ever wondered what it would look like if a guy with Tie Domi's hands patterned his game after Nathan Mackinnon....I'm only half joking when I say that's your guy. Nobody liked that. Then there's Tyson Barrie, a defenseman who made up for his soft defense by taking clappers from anywhere and everywhere, who some models have actually shown to have a more or less neutral impact on his teams' overall offense when he's on the ice. We did talk about all that, and I'm guessing every other fan base has their own guys in that regard.

There's also a fundamental different between hockey and basketball (and certainly soccer, though I don't understand it well so I'll park that one) when it comes to getting shots. Basketball is a strong-possession game with very little in the way of noticeable rush defense, and that's born out by the fact that teams get fairly close to the same number of field goal attempts as possessions in a given game. We don't really count possessions in hockey, but it's fairly obvious from casual watching that half the time a team lugs the puck up the ice, it doesn't go anywhere. So turning a rush into a shot in basketball is just what generally happens, but turning a rush into a shot in hockey is something you need your better players to do, whether that's with good playmaking, individual forays, getting open, etc.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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The thing though that really gives me pause about OVs late career sniping is that the Caps' power play hasn't been helped by it nearly as much as everyone pretends. Since 2019-20, they've been 17th in the league in PP%, but if you bring it up to almost anyone, you always hear that 1) it's unstoppable and 2) it's stupid that PKers leave that one timer unguarded because clearly they're getting eaten alive that way.
One of the reasons for this (I say this as a fan of a team with an Ovi-lite who operates in that circle) is that your PP can't solely rely on that one-timer anymore. PKs and goalies are too good. The Caps do not have players sufficiently talented to operate with a guy just a trigger man right there and no other significant threats.
 
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Elvis P

London Calling
Dec 10, 2007
24,236
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distrokid.com
I always enjoy posts such as "I'll never understand people lumping a guy that played literally a century ago with a guy who is still in the league lol. How could anyone under the age of 110 years old even have a reasonable opinion on Howie Morenz? lol". :sarcasm:
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
13,635
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Random question, not deserving of its own thread: When is the first time you recall seeing a broadcast use a shot location map?

Obviously, the NHL eventually keeps these...but like other things, like ice time, broadcasts (and teams) kept and displayed this information at random...I'm wondering if anyone can recall when they first started to see NHL shot location charts/maps...
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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Random question, not deserving of its own thread: When is the first time you recall seeing a broadcast use a shot location map?

Obviously, the NHL eventually keeps these...but like other things, like ice time, broadcasts (and teams) kept and displayed this information at random...I'm wondering if anyone can recall when they first started to see NHL shot location charts/maps...

Pure gut feeling, early-2010s.

Go ask the Habs board, probably the best place for this kind of question as there are a lot of old posters and the collective memory is pretty good.

Heck, I'll just do it.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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Howie Meeker back in the 1980's used to draw up the 1st, 2nd, 3rd... 11th, 12th shot locations in his "Magic Marker" segment.

Haha this is great! I was thinking more in terms of 2000-2024 broadcasting when I answered, but damn.

I don't think I recall a shot location map shown in the 2000s, but maybe I just didn't notice because I didn't care enough.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

2024 will be great!

Happy New Year to you.
 
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