Injury Report: Souray out 4-6 months

[Sojourn]

After reading your first paragraph I already disagreed. Your saying we should let them develop and ease them in slowly. We already have last season giving him 8 games. He's dominated the AHL and gave our blue some scoring last season. While he was up. So why should I read further? You're wrong on this development crap Soj you can't keep these players in the AHL for a lifetime.

Considering that isn't what I said, inferred, or implied, I question your decision to not read the rest of what I said.

 

[snarktacular]

It's a binary world. Young players are either going to get top line minutes and major PP time... or they'll waste away on bottom 6 roles in the AHL. There is no in-between.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

It's a binary world. Young players are either going to get top line minutes and major PP time... or they'll waste away on bottom 6 roles in the AHL. There is no in-between.

 

[Sojourn]

It's a binary world. Young players are either going to get top line minutes and major PP time... or they'll waste away on bottom 6 roles in the AHL. There is no in-between.

One would think.

I thought the concept of easing a player into the NHL spoke for itself, especially seeing as how we've done it many times with our own players.

 

[snarktacular]

No easing in is necessary. Our prospects are ready to be superstars now.

On an unrelated note, I came out of my mother's womb fully grown and learned.


I think people are underselling Sbisa a bit. Sbisa has had the minutes before. In the last playoffs, he was #3 on the ES TOI.

 

[Sojourn]

No easing in is necessary. Our prospects are ready to be superstars now.

On an unrelated note, I came out of my mother's womb fully grown and learned.

That must have been uncomfortable for both of you.

I think people are underselling Sbisa a bit. Sbisa has had the minutes before. In the last playoffs, he was #3 on the ES TOI.

You're probably right. It just feels like whenever his responsibilities increase, he seems to struggle more. Maybe it's just his mistakes being magnified, or maybe he tries to do too much. I'm not quite sure. I just don't feel completely comfortable relying on him to do the heavy lifting.

 

[snarktacular]

You're probably right. It just feels like whenever his responsibilities increase, he seems to struggle more. Maybe it's just his mistakes being magnified, or maybe he tries to do too much. I'm not quite sure. I just don't feel completely comfortable relying on him to do the heavy lifting.

He probably can't do heavy lifting as in he can't be an anchor for a line. But he should be serviceable with a good vet. The problem is that our good vets are Souray and Beauchemin, exactly the ones we need to sub for. We just have to hope Allen can recover his play (although Sbisa and Allen always seemed like a disaster pairing).

 

[Sojourn]

He probably can't do heavy lifting as in he can't be an anchor for a line. But he should be serviceable with a good vet. The problem is that our good vets are Souray and Beauchemin, exactly the ones we need to sub for. We just have to hope Allen can recover his play (although Sbisa and Allen always seemed like a disaster pairing).

Yeah. It's kind of a messy situation. :/ I'm optimistic about our blue line when healthy, but we're really going to need some guys to step up early in the season. Fowler and Sbisa being the two most important, I think. In a perfect world, we'd be able to let Sami dip his toe in the water before he tried swimming in the deep end. Ditto for Lindholm, if/when the opportunity comes up. The coaches are going to have their work cut out for them, managing that blue line.

 

[AngelDuck]

Without Beauchemin, that is all kinds of ugly. Pretty good pairings, though. I really wish we had another top 4 guy. It could really change the dynamic.

Yeah it's pretty ugly. I wouldn't mind Murray poking around the trade market looking to trade a young forward for a veteran top 4 guy. We also have an extra 1st round pick as trade bait. Murray has plenty of assets to stabilize our back end.

 

[Paul4587]

To all the youth movement lovers out there - when was the last time a team won a cup (or did any damage in the playoffs) with 3-4 defensemen aged 23 or under playing key roles?

You ease guys like Vatanen and Lindholm in - you don't throw them in top 4 roles when 2 of your best 3 defensemen are injured and your blueline is being led by a 21 year old in Fowler.

Edit: Snark put it better - rookies must get 1st line minutes or they're going to bust because they were overcooked in the AHL. That's how it worked for Detroit and their 4 cups in 11 years anyway.

 

[Elvs]

My guess:

Fowler - Lovejoy
Allen - Sbisa
Fistric - Vatanen

In a situation like this, I think you gotta look to build chemistry. Lovejoy already has it with Fowler and Sbisa has it with Allen. Fistric and Vatanen is risky, but I much rather have Allen in a top 4 role than Fistric.

One of Cumiskey, Yonkman, Clark, Warg should make the team as a 7th defenseman without Beauch. Clark or Warg could earn a top six spot over Fistric in camp, and Cumiskey could maybe earn a spot over Lovejoy (the old Lovejoy) or Vatanen (if he struggles).

 

[KaseMeOutside]

To all the youth movement lovers out there - when was the last time a team won a cup (or did any damage in the playoffs) with 3-4 defensemen aged 23 or under playing key roles?

You ease guys like Vatanen and Lindholm in - you don't throw them in top 4 roles when 2 of your best 3 defensemen are injured and your blueline is being led by a 21 year old in Fowler.

Edit: Snark put it better - rookies must get 1st line minutes or they're going to bust because they were overcooked in the AHL. That's how it worked for Detroit and their 4 cups in 11 years anyway.

except this team most likely is not a cup contender, unless the younger players can step up and contribute, so it's a catch 22

 

[Paul4587]

except this team most likely is not a cup contender, unless the younger players can step up and contribute, so it's a catch 22

Likely not but throwing that much youth into the fray on the blueline at once is asking for a lottery pick. Beauch can't get back soon enough.

 

[camshaft]

Why are we not considering Fowler a veteran defensemen? After all, he has played top 4 minutes for three full seasons. Yes, he is only 21, but as we have seen over the years, Cam plays far beyond his years.

Why do we want to baby Lindholm? Look at the success of Eckman-Larsson, whom the Ducks say Lindhom plays like. The Coyotes played Eckman-Larsson 15 games in AHL, and played him full time after that and now he is one of the top d-men in the game. Playing Cam in the first year after he was drafted also didn't hurt his development. So lets see how Lindholm does in training camp and see if he is ready before rushing into a trade.

 

[Kalv]

Lindholm is an option, but just because his playing style is similar to OEL`s doesn`t mean Lindholm will automatically be a Norris contender after 5 years. We have to look at what he have achieved and what he will achieve in TC.

If he does well, no problem, but for now, i doubt he should take anything more than #6 minutes in NHL. And only if Souray and Beauch is out.

 

[Elvs]

Why are we not considering Fowler a veteran defensemen? After all, he has played top 4 minutes for three full seasons. Yes, he is only 21, but as we have seen over the years, Cam plays far beyond his years.

Why do we want to baby Lindholm? Look at the success of Eckman-Larsson, whom the Ducks say Lindhom plays like. The Coyotes played Eckman-Larsson 15 games in AHL, and played him full time after that and now he is one of the top d-men in the game. Playing Cam in the first year after he was drafted also didn't hurt his development. So lets see how Lindholm does in training camp and see if he is ready before rushing into a trade.

Not the same. By the time Ekman-Larsson started in the AHL, he had already played two seasons in Allsvenskan and was the best defenseman in the entire league. Not to mention 13 games for team Sweden, including 9 in the World Championship which ended with a bronze medal. And by the time he made his first full NHL season, he had earned a World Championship silver medal as well.

Hampus Lindholm on the other hand has 20 games in Allsvenskan and spent the rest of the time in juniors, and has 0 experience from international play (other than junior level). Not saying he can't make the team, but Ekman-Larsson defenitely had a ton more experience of playing under high pressure.

 

[Paul4587]

Why are we not considering Fowler a veteran defensemen? After all, he has played top 4 minutes for three full seasons. Yes, he is only 21, but as we have seen over the years, Cam plays far beyond his years.

Why do we want to baby Lindholm? Look at the success of Eckman-Larsson, whom the Ducks say Lindhom plays like. The Coyotes played Eckman-Larsson 15 games in AHL, and played him full time after that and now he is one of the top d-men in the game. Playing Cam in the first year after he was drafted also didn't hurt his development. So lets see how Lindholm does in training camp and see if he is ready before rushing into a trade.

Fowler has played 3 years and he has a ton of potential but he's still a long way from putting everything together and he had more than his share of ups and downs last season. Asking him to anchor a blueline at 21 is putting a lot of weight on his shoulders. He's not a rookie anymore but he's not what I'd consider a veteran defenseman.

In response to your second paragraph - firstly it's Ekman-Larsson. Secondly, he was eased into the NHL slowly at 19 into a lineup with a huge veteran presence (Jovo, Aucoin, Yandle & Morris along with mid season acquisitions Roszival and Klesla), playing only 15 minutes a game and spending time in the AHL that season too. Thirdly - guys like Fowler and OEL are exceptions to the rule and both have had their share of growing pains along the way. Lindholm is a great prospect but those guys were pretty much can't miss prospects.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Likely not but throwing that much youth into the fray on the blueline at once is asking for a lottery pick. Beauch can't get back soon enough.

Well I would agree to an extent, and if the young players struggle this will be a lottery team most likely. If they as a group play well, then this teams ceiling is pretty high. Either way I see us as a team that could score alot of goals, and also give alot up

 

[eenok*]

hello..amezed here....of bull...yeah...just must clear out this:

why heck always here at forum talk of vatanen an lindholm like of same player..always this give boys a chanche ...like if A MUST TAKE BOTH SAME TIME TIL ANAHEIM!

i say; vatanen been years dominating ADULT games up at EUROPE! finnish league, games w finnish adult lions etc. and AHL...

lindholm has no points whatsover in career...dont say hes a good offence power..hes not.. he´s not vatanen ok? get that.

vatanen will play big minites from start of season hes gonna do extreme well get that.

if you wanna hack on vatanen dfensive hack on fowler too then. vatanen is reading game in superstar way. he handles every second very well at ice in brains an atletics . please dont spread bull here JUST ENJOY THE BOYS DOMINATION AT NHL LEVEL. lindholm? just forget him now. hes time today is AHL tomorrow will shows if he can be a police at anaheim some day in future.

amen


EENOK,HOCKEYPROFESSOR,IL,FINLAND

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Hampus Lindholm; Security Guard!

 

[CrazyDuck4u]

hello..amezed here....of bull...yeah...just must clear out this:

why heck always here at forum talk of vatanen an lindholm like of same player..always this give boys a chanche ...like if A MUST TAKE BOTH SAME TIME TIL ANAHEIM!

i say; vatanen been years dominating ADULT games up at EUROPE! finnish league, games w finnish adult lions etc. and AHL...

lindholm has no points whatsover in career...dont say hes a good offence power..hes not.. he´s not vatanen ok? get that.

vatanen will play big minites from start of season hes gonna do extreme well get that.

if you wanna hack on vatanen dfensive hack on fowler too then. vatanen is reading game in superstar way. he handles every second very well at ice in brains an atletics . please dont spread bull here JUST ENJOY THE BOYS DOMINATION AT NHL LEVEL. lindholm? just forget him now. hes time today is AHL tomorrow will shows if he can be a police at anaheim some day in future.

amen


EENOK,HOCKEYPROFESSOR,IL,FINLAND

I thank you every morning for my laughter.. You are funny sir..

 

[Hockey Duckie]

After reading your first paragraph I already disagreed. Your saying we should let them develop and ease them in slowly. We already have last season giving him 8 games. He's dominated the AHL and gave our blue some scoring last season. While he was up. So why should I read further? You're wrong on this development crap Soj you can't keep these players in the AHL for a lifetime.

Ehh... offensively, he was the ish at the AHL, but playing against NHL players on defense is a completely different matter. Vats needs to develop a different game plan if he's to survive being a good defenseman who can score. He's getting overpowered and that's what Vats needs to address. So hopefully Scotty can show Vats how that's possible.

If you look at Scotty and his brother Robbie, you'd think Robbie would be the one to be menacing at dishing out hard checks if one didn't watch hockey. And yet it's Scotty that everyone's afraid of. Now, how can Scotty relate that type of game to Vats so that he doesn't become a defensive liability.

I love Vatanen's talent, but if he's a defenseman, then he should at least do a solid job defending first.

 

[Ducksgo*]

To all the youth movement lovers out there - when was the last time a team won a cup (or did any damage in the playoffs) with 3-4 defensemen aged 23 or under playing key roles?

You ease guys like Vatanen and Lindholm in - you don't throw them in top 4 roles when 2 of your best 3 defensemen are injured and your blueline is being led by a 21 year old in Fowler.

Edit: Snark put it better - rookies must get 1st line minutes or they're going to bust because they were overcooked in the AHL. That's how it worked for Detroit and their 4 cups in 11 years anyway.

Kinda sick of hearing this ease Linds or Vats in slowly? what is this a prom date? So lets say Vats goes insane crazy and puts up pts for our team. Souray comes back from recovery and we reward him back in the AHL? I mean this is completely possible. 8 gp 2 goals already. If he goes 30 and 8 goals 15 a???? What's your verdict what would you do in this situation? It's totally unfair for the youth to be keeping down like this IMO. People are already on the ropes about Etem being sent down even though he was arguable our best playoff player.

 

[Sojourn]

Kinda sick of hearing this ease Linds or Vats in slowly? what is this a prom date? So lets say Vats goes insane crazy and puts up pts for our team. Souray comes back from recovery and we reward him back in the AHL? I mean this is completely possible. 8 gp 2 goals already. If he goes 30 and 8 goals 15 a???? What's your verdict what would you do in this situation? It's totally unfair for the youth to be keeping down like this IMO. People are already on the ropes about Etem being sent down even though he was arguable our best playoff player.

@ using 8 games to project his numbers.

And sure, let's ignore countless examples of successful development. If Vatanen goes insane crazy, Boudreau will give him more responsibility. That's usually how it works. What is more likely, however is that he has growing pains, good and bad stretches, and needs time to grow into the player he will become. You're trying to paint some fairy tale story with a happy ending. Reality says hi.

Edit: and, for the record, snark is dead on. You're acting like he either gets big responsibilities, or he's in the AHL. Why can't he get 3rd pairing responsibilities, with some PP time? You know, put him into a position to succeed, and grow. It's only a proven approach to developing prospects.

 

[snarktacular]

Kinda sick of hearing this ease Linds or Vats in slowly? what is this a prom date? So lets say Vats goes insane crazy and puts up pts for our team. Souray comes back from recovery and we reward him back in the AHL? I mean this is completely possible. 8 gp 2 goals already. If he goes 30 and 8 goals 15 a???? What's your verdict what would you do in this situation? It's totally unfair for the youth to be keeping down like this IMO. People are already on the ropes about Etem being sent down even though he was arguable our best playoff player.

"Easing them in" does not necessarily mean play them in the AHL. It could mean giving them sheltered minutes on the 3rd pairing.

edit: it could even mean giving them partial time in the top 4, bumping them up and down as play warrants. And if the kids feel they are being treated unfairly when this is how almost all rookies are brought in, then they are soft in the head and won't amount to anything anyways.